accusump/drysump/wetsump

[IheartSTI]

I have been doing some research as i get closer to finishing my race car build and i was hoping to get some feedback. I been reading about the difference of the three and wanted to know if anyone on here has any experience in the area. i know the accusump is the cheap way to go so i through it in there. as far as drysump goes i have a friend who will fab an oil pan up and i dont think i will need a need exhaust manifold. If i go drysump i want to peice it together because kits are are around 3-6k. i dont know to much about wet sump but i think you can use stock oil pan correct? if i can talk to someone who has knowlege in the area i would be thankful.

[Dean]

I can't help you, but always wondered why this appears to be made so complicated and expensive.

I would think a high volume scavenging self priming pump, a reservoir and plumbing that just fed the existing pump input would be fairly simple. Maybe the volumes are so high that the pump is the issue.

[knucklesplitter]

My friend Ray is going to do dry sump oiling for his race-only STI. He and I have been doing quite a bit or research on the subject. Ray works at a race shop, Speed Tech, that builds off-road race trucks and dry-sumping is a must-do on those.

You are right about the price. The Cosworth kit is overpriced (as usual for them) and I believe it still uses the Subaru oil pump, which of course they recommend you upgrade to their overpriced version of that too. If I were going dry sump I would get an external pump that had the main pressure pump integrated into it, and bypass the Subie oil pump. I think you will find that even if you piece it together yourself you are looking at a lot of money - $2k-3k+ depending on how much fab. you do yourself or get free.

I do not know how serious this racecar of yours is going to be. I would be tempted to just upgrade the stock oiling system. Upgrade the oil pump to the 11mm 08+ STI pump or the 12mm JDM pump. Then get a better oil pan like the Cosworth or the Moroso and use an Accusump for insurance. A good oil cooler too of course. This set-up seems to work on Ray's car now (and sperry's too) without the Accusump.

If you decide to take the leap to dry sump:

One big advantage of a dry sump would be the scavenging. In addition to scavenging from 2 places on the oil pan it can also scavenge from the valve covers and the "catch can", aka air/oil separator. This would be an big advantage for an all-out Subaru.

Oil pan: We are going to do a shallow CNC aluminum one like the Cosworth. I have started drawing this on CAD. If you want one let me know.

Oil pump: The pump we are going to use is a "Daily Engineering" one. This is what Speed Tech uses, and they are very very nice. They customize them in whatever stage combo you need. And they have a stage designed specifically for scavenging the air/oil separator.
http://www.daileyengineering.com/

Oil pump mounting: The usual place to mount the oil pump is where the AC compressor used to be. A bracket would be easy to fab. for this. But Ray has been talking to Daily about mounting the pump low and on the oil pan. Check out the Daily sight for how this works, as they already do it for Viper, LS6, SBC, and BBC engines. They say they have a design for Subarus but I have not seen it yet. This will also help Ray because we are moving his alternator to where the former compressor location to make room for a custom reverse intake manifold.

Oil Tank: I don't know too much about this yet. These are readily available and some of the imported ones look decent.

AN fittings and lines: These cost a fortune. If you budget $1000, then it will end up being $1500+. Summit has good prices on Summit-branded AN fittings and hose. High quality and probably manufactured by a name brand company for them.

If you go to a dry sump system, please contact me. I want to productize the pan and maybe some other stuff to sell under the KSTech brand. We could work together on your car in combination with Ray's and save some money and engineering time.

[IheartSTI]

I was thinking about making the jump to a 12mm oil pump but i already have a 10mm pump so i decided if i am going to do something i am going to sell the 10mm and use a stock oil pump and have a block off plate made.

I love the idea of putting the pump on the oil pan. I have seen this on a couple different set ups and i think it would eliminate the challange of getting everything to fit with my rotated intake mani set up.

As far as the tank goes i would rather not run it to the rear of the car. I think a 3-4 gallon tank is a little overkill. I rather put it in the stock battery location. This is something we can do get still keep clean. making a kit with the least amount of clutter is going to make it more apealing to others.

AN fittings suck to buy. when you buy them you look and them and wonder why you are spending so much money on something so small. I like the summit brand stuff and like you said i am sure it is manufactured by another company who makes them.

pm sent to ya

[IheartSTI]

this would be the way to go.... I just dont know what kind of crazy fab work would be involved.

[100_Percent_Juice]

That looks so freaking expensive.

[sperry]

I have one question: why do you need a dry sump?

To put it simply, if you don't really need one, and are just building this for kicks, you won't have any idea if the setup you've got is actually working any better than the stock configuration.

My guess is you don't actually need a dry sump. I've had oil starvation issues on my car (a hybrid block plus 1.5 lateral G's will pump oil into the heads and out the breathers) and I fixed my issue with just a larger oil pan (Cosworth) and windage tray and better routing of my oil cooler and remote filter to reduce 90deg fittings.

IMO, the only cars that really *need* a dry sump are cars that are being jumped (i.e. rally) and cars that are seeing extended periods of high G's over long race sessions, i.e. endurance race cars. I don't think even Time Attack cars really need them since they're usually only doing 1 or 2 hot laps in succession, after which they can take an 80% lap to cool down, so even if they're a little thin on oil, they're not going to overheat the way an race car that's fighting nearly every lap will. And drag cars should be fine with just an accusump at most.

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by sperry

I have one question: why do you need a dry sump?

To put it simply, if you don't really need one, and are just building this for kicks, you won't have any idea if the setup you've got is actually working any better than the stock configuration.

My guess is you don't actually need a dry sump. I've had oil starvation issues on my car (a hybrid block plus 1.5 lateral G's will pump oil into the heads and out the breathers) and I fixed my issue with just a larger oil pan (Cosworth) and windage tray and better routing of my oil cooler and remote filter to reduce 90deg fittings.

IMO, the only cars that really *need* a dry sump are cars that are being jumped (i.e. rally) and cars that are seeing extended periods of high G's over long race sessions, i.e. endurance race cars. I don't think even Time Attack cars really need them since they're usually only doing 1 or 2 hot laps in succession, after which they can take an 80% lap to cool down, so even if they're a little thin on oil, they're not going to overheat the way an race car that's fighting nearly every lap will. And drag cars should be fine with just an accusump at most.

well i knew this post in the thread was coming. It has nothing to do with really having to have it. i could get away with spending $500 on an accusump kit and it would be that little extra insurance. I dont build my car to race and do events all the time. I enjoy the build and making something the best i can. The things i have learned from jumping into a project are not replacable. I think this is something that would be an awsome project to do. I know most of you would find it impractacle or would rather spend money elsewhere but thats not me. and also if i wanted a thread asking if i really need it i would have had a thread titled "do i need a drysump" thanks for your concern but lets keep this thread on point

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

well i knew this post in the thread was coming. It has nothing to do with really having to have it. i could get away with spending $500 on an accusump kit and it would be that little extra insurance. I dont build my car to race and do events all the time. I enjoy the build and making something the best i can. The things i have learned from jumping into a project are not replacable. I think this is something that would be an awsome project to do. I know most of you would find it impractacle or would rather spend money elsewhere but thats not me. and also if i wanted a thread asking if i really need it i would have had a thread titled "do i need a drysump" thanks for your concern but lets keep this thread on point

My point is, if you're building this simple to learn as you suggest you are, you're not going to learn anything if you're not actually using the system. For example, you build the system but for some reason it actually only oils at half the volume of the stock setup. Well, if you're not pushing the car, you may never notice that your expensive learning project actually works worse than the factory setup, in which case you learned nothing useful about building a dry sump setup. If you were to apply your experience on a car that actually needs a dry sump, you may actually end up hurting the car.

Similarly, from the perspective of Matt and Ray who are attempting to develop a dry sump for actual use, your setup lends them nothing outside of perhaps some basic fitment testing.

But the most important reason why asking "why do you need a dry sump?" is a valid question is that it's the absolute most important thing to know when it comes to designing and building the system. A dry sump on a drag car is potentially different from the setup on a rally car or the setup on an endurance car. The location and size of the oil reservoir, the shape of the pan, the location of the pump, the size of the lines and fittings, the use of the stock pump, etc, etc, etc should be tailored to the way the system is being used. Are you sumping the car because you're fighting lateral G oil starvation, or are you doing it to reduce parasitic loss on the bottom end? What sort of oil pressure/flow does your motor need? Asking what you're trying to do is the first and most obvious question to ask, so don't get your panties in a bunch because you think I'm trying to derail your thread.

So, now that you've stated your "race car" isn't actually going to be raced, I think answering your initial request for some tips is easy: get an off the shelf kit. Any dry sump is going to be unnecessary on your car, and you won't be evaluating a custom designed system for performance, so get something that someone else has designed and tested, whether it be the Cosworth setup or waiting for Matt and Ray to build and evaluate their design. If you're just looking for eye candy and a learning experience w/ the setup/install of the system, off the shelf is going to be by far the easiest and most reliable setup.

My experience w/ oil setup is that it's never as simple as just picking out the parts you want and plugging them all together... the parts all have to work well together and evaluated as a whole system. Things like hose diameter, length, fittings, etc all play a part in the overall performance. If you can't litter your setup with oil pressure gauges to check all the components during testing, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with something new. I've gone that route and killed my motor more than once.

[IheartSTI]

your point was made with taking my post out of context. there was at no point a time i said i was not going to race or test my car. I said i was not going to be doing it all the time. To think this kit wont be tested is a misunderstanding. I want a drysump system that can be used for all applications i might encounter. this could include track day at a road course or going to the drag strip and having some fun.

I have not ruled out going with an accusump or sticking with a 10mm shimmed pump. this thread was to ask if someone had knowledge of doing one of three i titled the thread. I am sure if i do end up doing this with matt and rays help we will go over size of lines and things. that is knit picking and when i get to that point i figure it out.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

your point was made with taking my post out of context. there was at no point a time i said i was not going to race or test my car. I said i was not going to be doing it all the time. To think this kit wont be tested is a misunderstanding. I want a drysump system that can be used for all applications i might encounter. this could include track day at a road course or going to the drag strip and having some fun.

I have not ruled out going with an accusump or sticking with a 10mm shimmed pump. this thread was to ask if someone had knowledge of doing one of three i titled the thread. I am sure if i do end up doing this with matt and rays help we will go over size of lines and things. that is knit picking and when i get to that point i figure it out.

It still remains that you're creating a solution to no problem. You can't tell me what use case of the car the dry sump is for. Once again, why do you need a dry sump? What problem are you trying to solve?

Like I said in my first post, a proper oil pan and pump is going to be more than enough when your use conditions are "all applications i might encounter", and all you plan to encounter are some aggressive street driving, the occasional PDX, and a night here and there at the drag strip. And I'm not trying to talk you out of a dry sump, I'm just trying to point out that you should be building your car for what you're going to use it for. Building your own dry sump that you don't need is at best just a waste of money, but at worst could result in an oiling problem during your actual use cases like just driving around on the street if you don't have the resources to properly test the configuration and ensure you're getting stock or better oil pressure/flow/filtering. So if you're going to do it, I'd look into a complete, proven, off the shelf kit rather than attempting to engineer something yourself since you don't have any actual problem you're building the system to fix.

I've gone down the road you're going down and I've broken motors due to my inexperience. So I'm not trying to stifle creativity, I'm just trying to use my experiences to help keep others from having to suffer the same failures I've gone through if they don't have to. You're the one that asked for people that have some experience with this stuff. It may not be what you want to hear, but for what you're doing with the car a dry sump is just a bunch of expensive complexity added to the build where the simpler, well tested factory oil setup is plenty adequate.

So in summary, here's what I'd suggest:

1) Stock oil pan and pump, proper oil catch cans, off the shelf oil cooler kit

2) Add oversized JDM or aftermarket oil pump

3) Add larger oil pan and windage tray

4) Add drain back oil breather system <- this is basically where my track car is (though I've also got an oil filter relocation kit), and it seems like it's up to the task of handling the lateral G's the car sees at the track under PDX/Time Trials conditions, but it wasn't built without several iterations and motor failures along the way. I wish I had been able to just buy an off the shelf kit because I didn't have the resources to properly engineer and test my setup... I had to do it by trial and error.

5) Add an accusump

6) Off the shelf dry sump setup

7) Custom designed dry sump setup <- but be prepared to either spend the time/money instrumenting the system to validate it's working, or be prepared to deal with a blown motor if the oiling fails and the accusump can't save the day. Not saying you it's inevitable, just know what you're getting yourself into.

I'm willing to be #1 is more than enough for what your plans are with the car. Going as high as #5 should provide additional capability as long as there are no design issues w/ your setup like I had with mine the first two designs I tried (mostly related to effective length of the oil lines in the system and lack of proper oil pressure monitoring). #6 and #7 are just overkill.

[IheartSTI]

I am only asking because I don't know. Can a dry sump system hurt my car? Can it damage the motor? Assuming g it is installed correctly?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

I am only asking because I don't know. Can a dry sump system hurt my car? Can it damage the motor? Assuming g it is installed correctly?

I would say that any changes to the oiling system can hurt the car if it's not done correctly.

For example, I installed a remote oil filter and oil cooler setup that I designed myself and killed my motor. I had high oil temps that led to a spun bearing. I still haven't sorted out exactly how or why I had an issue, my oil pressures looked fine but under high lateral G's my oil temps would spike. The likely issue was that I was using too much plumbing in my oil routing, along with too many 90 deg fittings (apparently every 90 deg fitting acts like 10 feet of line). So while I was seeing good oil pressure at my sender (which was installed early in the oil filter relocation block), by the time my oil was getting to the bearings it was likely low on pressure. But since I hadn't properly instrumented for oil pressure, I don't really know what happened.

My current setup uses a higher flow JDM oil pump, much less plumbing, a much larger oil cooler, only a single 90 deg fitting, and my oil pressure sender is in the block allowing me to see the actual pressure in the journals rather than seeing the pressure in the remote filter. Now I'm not seeing the oil temps spike under high lateral G's. But I'm also not driving the car as hard these days since I'm just running PDX's instead of competing in Time Trials.

So, an off the shelf kit that's been designed and tested shouldn't hurt anything if it's installed correctly. But piecing something of your own together could present issues even if installed correctly if all the parts don't work together just right. My original setup looked fine on paper as it was assembled from all the "right" parts, but when installed still led to issues.

[IheartSTI]

So, an off the shelf kit that's been designed and tested shouldn't hurt anything if it's installed correctly. But piecing something of your own together could present issues even if installed correctly if all the parts don't work together just right

its pretty impressive how much you can actually type before answering the question. haha jk sperry but thanks

[Kevin M]

This is essentially the conversation we have for every thread about "should I buy/build X mod?" The question we'll collectively ask is, what is the problem or undesirable behavior you're looking to change?" Since your answer was essentially "I want a cool dry sump and/or Accusump system" Scott pointed out the potential future issues with going down that road. So yes, odds are that an off-the-shelf system (or one you're prepared to make a serious investment of time to engineer on your own) probably wouldn't cause you any issues. It just doesn't actually prevent any for you specifically either.

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

This is essentially the conversation we have for every thread about "should I buy/build X mod?" The question we'll collectively ask is, what is the problem or undesirable behavior you're looking to change?" Since your answer was essentially "I want a cool dry sump and/or Accusump system" Scott pointed out the potential future issues with going down that road. So yes, odds are that an off-the-shelf system (or one you're prepared to make a serious investment of time to engineer on your own) probably wouldn't cause you any issues. It just doesn't actually prevent any for you specifically either.

I am not saying a dry sump is not overkill because it is but how are you guys making these points without even knowing the mods of my car? It has been asked what i am using this car but not what i have. So for you to say one of these systems is completely useless and would not prevent anything that might happen is wrong. Like i said maybe a drysump system is overkill but having the safety of an accusump could be the difference of spinning a bearing or not. I have a 2.65 stroker, ported heads, oversized valves, 280 cams, and a 40r. Knowing i am going to have some lag i want to make up for it on the back end. If i could rev between 8400-9k rpms it would make a whole lot of difference than going to 8k rpms. Can a 12mm pump handle this? from the research i have done, speaking with my tuner, and posting on other sites the anwser i get is basically "maybe". I am not saying you guys dont know what your talking about because i know thats not the case, but my idea has been smothered by negativity or people posting when not knowing the facts.

You can come back and write a book about how you are right and i am wrong or you can help me answer some of the question i have. What is it going to take, should i spend the least amount and go with accusump or just go for something that is going to be better but more expensive. To many times do i get on here and watch threads go down the drain from arguing about things that dont need to be argued about. with that said i dont want this to end up being one of those threads. I just want help from people who are going to be supportive and get some facts before rambling on and on and on.

[Kevin M]

We can't answer your question without more information than you gave us. Further information provided by you indicates that there is no problem that you need an additional oiling system to solve. That is the answer to your question. Since you still want one, you were asked further questions regarding the use of your car. Nobody asked about your mods, because none of them matter except for your current rev limit and any oiling changes you may have made, such as modified crank or oil pump. You didn't mention them in your OP so we assumed you didn't have them. In order to help you not add a system that will have faults or weaknesses compared to stock, we need details of what you're going to do- sustained lateral loads vs. sustained high RPM use vs. drag strip vs. normal street driving all have different requirements. You said there would be a little of all of that. Fortunately, your stock oiling system is up to the task for that. All you have to do is ensure that whatever you add doesn't screw up. At that point, you had your answer in Scott's post breaking out your options. Nothing, OTS Accusump kit, or OTS dry sump will probably serve you just fine. Trying to homebrew something leaves you open to the possibility of making a mistake that kills your motor.

/book

tl;dr version: Scott gave you the answer, it just wasn't what you expected.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

I am not saying a dry sump is not overkill because it is but how are you guys making these points without even knowing the mods of my car? It has been asked what i am using this car but not what i have. So for you to say one of these systems is completely useless and would not prevent anything that might happen is wrong. Like i said maybe a drysump system is overkill but having the safety of an accusump could be the difference of spinning a bearing or not. I have a 2.65 stroker, ported heads, oversized valves, 280 cams, and a 40r. Knowing i am going to have some lag i want to make up for it on the back end. If i could rev between 8400-9k rpms it would make a whole lot of difference than going to 8k rpms. Can a 12mm pump handle this? from the research i have done, speaking with my tuner, and posting on other sites the anwser i get is basically "maybe". I am not saying you guys dont know what your talking about because i know thats not the case, but my idea has been smothered by negativity or people posting when not knowing the facts.

You can come back and write a book about how you are right and i am wrong or you can help me answer some of the question i have. What is it going to take, should i spend the least amount and go with accusump or just go for something that is going to be better but more expensive. To many times do i get on here and watch threads go down the drain from arguing about things that dont need to be argued about. with that said i dont want this to end up being one of those threads. I just want help from people who are going to be supportive and get some facts before rambling on and on and on.

I apologize for attempting to answer your vague posts with accurate and detailed information. From now on I'll just stick to short snide comments since clearly I'm wasting my time posting replies that you don't want to hear regardless of whether or not they're backed by the 1st hand experience you said you wanted.

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by sperry

I apologize for attempting to answer your vague posts with accurate and detailed information. From now on I'll just stick to short snide comments since clearly I'm wasting my time posting replies that you don't want to hear regardless of whether or not they're backed by the 1st hand experience you said you wanted.

please enlighten me with your vast knowledge of hands on experience with dry sump systems, and high horsepowered subaru's. Yes sperry you have hands on experience with road racing and a home built oil cooler that failed. Because you failed at something does not mean someone else is going to fail at something you could not do. I am sure nobody is in disagreement of your knowledge of Subaru tuning and most of all road racing. I have read a lot of threads and it is filled with good to know stuff you have contributed to probably more than anyone else on this forum.

The questions i asked were not rocket science. I wanted to know if i should use an accusump or spend the extra money and get something even better. If i am going to be spending money why not and see if i can get the best system out there. Do i want to spend $400 on an ebay turbo or do i want to spend the extra money and get a better product. Do i want to eat all nature or go big if i have the means and desire to eat organic.

Yes i did make a mistake by not informing in the first post what my car will be used for and what mods it had. again when i said this thread was going to shit its because i have read other people ask questions and get completely bashed. maybe this should be locked because its officially going NOWHERE!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

please enlighten me with your vast knowledge of hands on experience with dry sump systems, and high horsepowered subaru's. Yes sperry you have hands on experience with road racing and a home built oil cooler that failed. Because you failed at something does not mean someone else is going to fail at something you could not do. I am sure nobody is in disagreement of your knowledge of Subaru tuning and most of all road racing. I have read a lot of threads and it is filled with good to know stuff you have contributed to probably more than anyone else on this forum.

The questions i asked were not rocket science. I wanted to know if i should use an accusump or spend the extra money and get something even better. If i am going to be spending money why not and see if i can get the best system out there. Do i want to spend $400 on an ebay turbo or do i want to spend the extra money and get a better product. Do i want to eat all nature or go big if i have the means and desire to eat organic.

Yes i did make a mistake by not informing in the first post what my car will be used for and what mods it had. again when i said this thread was going to shit its because i have read other people ask questions and get completely bashed. maybe this should be locked because its officially going NOWHERE!

Why would I bother anymore with attempting to enlighten you? You clearly have already made up your mind about what you want to do, and don't want to listen to anyone that's got a contrary opinion. Hell, I don't even have a contrary opinion to using a dry sump, I'm just urging caution because it's such a critical component. But you don't want to read anything critical, and instead just whine about having to read too much.

So here are the answers to all the questions you posed in this thread:

No.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Succinct enough for you?

And I apologize to everyone else for having to lock a thread that actually has some decent technical discussion.