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-   Technical Chat (https://www.seccs.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   Engine Question (https://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8236)

sperry 2009-10-27 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice (Post 141391)
I think Scott and Kevin are thinking too hard on this one.

Arrows if you have a borked car, fix it.
+1. If the shortblock is broken, replace it. No other parts needed, no tuning needed, no sorting out what works, etc.

The rest of this conversation is academic.

100_Percent_Juice 2009-10-27 03:46 PM
If academic= riddled with false information, this thread is blazingly academic.

sperry 2009-10-27 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice (Post 141398)
If academic= riddled with false information, this thread is blazingly academic.
Where is this thread "riddled with false information"? I see a bunch of people trying to figure out what the facts are... you not being one of them.

How about you go find the list of what size and type injectors came on each turbo Impreza in the US from '02 to '09. I've been searching google and NASIOC and haven't been able to find anything reliable yet. But at least I'm looking rather than adding useless posts to this tech thread. Except for this post apparently. :unamused:

100_Percent_Juice 2009-10-27 04:51 PM
It's actually a sticky.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1218460

I guess I was wrong saying false information, I should have said misinformation. And I don't see a bunch of people trying to find facts, I see 2 people trying to get their facts straight after making incorrect statements. The injectors were never an issue until I posted something contrary to what you believed to be true and instead of finding the facts and then coming back to the thread you decided to argue about top feed and side feed.

sperry 2009-10-27 05:14 PM
Well I guess in the future I'll refrain from asking you legitimate questions. I thought "'06 WRX's have side-feed '04 STi injectors?" was a pretty straightforward thing to ask when someone states the '06 WRX has "the same" injectors as an '04 STi and I was pretty sure that no WRX's ever had side-feeds. Sure I was wrong about the sizes, but the point I was making about needing tuning was still correct.

If you want to start pointing out misinformation, you can start with your post in the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice (Post 141355)
An 06 has the same injectors as an sti so if he uses the sti turbo and intercooler it will probably be even easier than what you said, to get an easy tune.
...because you would in fact need to change the tune for the different injector latencies between the '06 WRX and '04 STi injectors, even though they're both rated for similar flow (if you consider 535 the same as 560). So really, the "similarity" of the injectors makes nothing much easier since the latencies will have to be updated and the flows scaled.

So then... for reference:

All WRXs have top-feed injectors.
'02 to '05 are 420cc top-feeds, latencies: 2.79, 1.49, 0.98, 0.68, 0.38 (in Cobb AP voltage order)
'06+ are 560cc top-feeds, latencies: 4.70, 2.65, 1.73, 1.20, 0.99

Some STi's have side-feeds, some have top-feeds:
'04-'06 STi are 535cc side-feeds, latencies: 7.66, 2.69, 1.37, 1.05, 0.75
'07+ STi are 560cc top-feeds, (which I'm assuming are the same as the '06+ WRX injectors)

So, when attempting to swap an '06 WRX motor into an '04 STi, you're going to need to re-tune the ECU for the injectors, even if you re-use the STi's turbo and intercooler.

Kevin M 2009-10-27 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry (Post 141389)
Wait... so now we're back to the '06 WRX having exactly the same injectors as the '04 STi? :lol:

The STi never "got" side-feeds. It always had them, until recently when they switched to top-feeds. I didn't think any WRX's ever had side-feeds.
I thought '04 STis had the same injectors as the EJ207, but I could very well be wrong. Like I mentioned, it's been years since I really strained to keep up with what swaps where (other than older NA stuff).

Also, I thoguht the 2.5 liter WRXs had side-feeds, but I guess that was conjecture on hearing they were the same size as the STi injectors.

Kevin M 2009-10-27 05:26 PM
Also also, "WRX motor" would be shortblock and heads I would think. Manifolds, fueling, and wiring shouldn't be swapped if they don't have to be. So the injectors wouldn't actually be a tuning issue, if the STi manifold and fueling physically bolts to the EJ255, which I'm pretty sure will (just not vice-versa).

Arrows 2009-10-27 05:37 PM
Okay, so it's been so long since I've been in contact with the car that I forgot what year it was. It's an 05. Off by one. Whoops...

Here is a summary of the main parts that what Lithia wanted to replace (for $7078 )

Short Block
Timing Belt
Oil Pump
A bunch of gaskets
Adjuster of some sort
Idler
& Oil & coolant

I'd be more descriptive but that's all it says on their quote sheet, if you guys know part numbers I'll throw those up.

I have a complete (minus wiring harness, ecu, intake, and intercooler) 06 WRX Turbo engine

100_Percent_Juice 2009-10-27 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry (Post 141405)
Well I guess in the future I'll refrain from asking you legitimate questions. I thought "'06 WRX's have side-feed '04 STi injectors?" was a pretty straightforward thing to ask when someone states the '06 WRX has "the same" injectors as an '04 STi and I was pretty sure that no WRX's ever had side-feeds. Sure I was wrong about the sizes, but the point I was making about needing tuning was still correct.

If you want to start pointing out misinformation, you can start with your post in the thread:



...because you would in fact need to change the tune for the different injector latencies between the '06 WRX and '04 STi injectors, even though they're both rated for similar flow (if you consider 535 the same as 560). So really, the "similarity" of the injectors makes nothing much easier since the latencies will have to be updated and the flows scaled.

So then... for reference:

All WRXs have top-feed injectors.
'02 to '05 are 420cc top-feeds, latencies: 2.79, 1.49, 0.98, 0.68, 0.38 (in Cobb AP voltage order)
'06+ are 560cc top-feeds, latencies: 4.70, 2.65, 1.73, 1.20, 0.99

Some STi's have side-feeds, some have top-feeds:
'04-'06 STi are 535cc side-feeds, latencies: 7.66, 2.69, 1.37, 1.05, 0.75
'07+ STi are 560cc top-feeds, (which I'm assuming are the same as the '06+ WRX injectors)

So, when attempting to swap an '06 WRX motor into an '04 STi, you're going to need to re-tune the ECU for the injectors, even if you re-use the STi's turbo and intercooler.
Just so attitude can't be read into my post I will add this.

*Calm non-sarcastic tone*

I really don't care who is right or wrong. I did not have a good day today and it clearly went into this thread.

ScottyS 2009-10-27 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows (Post 141411)
Okay, so it's been so long since I've been in contact with the car that I forgot what year it was. It's an 05. Off by one. Whoops...

Here is a summary of the main parts that what Lithia wanted to replace (for $7078 )

Short Block
Timing Belt
Oil Pump
A bunch of gaskets
Adjuster of some sort
Idler
& Oil & coolant

I'd be more descriptive but that's all it says on their quote sheet, if you guys know part numbers I'll throw those up.

I have a complete (minus wiring harness, ecu, intake, and intercooler) 06 WRX Turbo engine
Simplicity says that you build the STi engine back up to avoid hybridizing issues. The shortblock is the only really expensive part, maybe it's just me, but I would think that a complete 06 motor would sell for enough to get all the stuff you need. Otherwise, as others have stated, tearing the 06 motor apart for the block (if same as 05 STi) and small bits might be feasible, and sell the rest.

Arrows 2009-10-27 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyS (Post 141419)
Simplicity says that you build the STi engine back up to avoid hybridizing issues. The shortblock is the only really expensive part, maybe it's just me, but I would think that a complete 06 motor would sell for enough to get all the stuff you need. Otherwise, as others have stated, tearing the 06 motor apart for the block (if same as 05 STi) and small bits might be feasible, and sell the rest.
Well from what I can gather the 05 STi shortblock is the same as the 06 WRX shortblock so I think thats what I'm gonna be doing & parting out all the stuff I don't need/cant use off the 06 engine.

ScottyS 2009-10-28 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows (Post 141422)
Well from what I can gather the 05 STi shortblock is the same as the 06 WRX shortblock so I think thats what I'm gonna be doing & parting out all the stuff I don't need/cant use off the 06 engine.
Cool, we are rooting for your success!

A1337STI 2009-10-28 09:33 PM
I know of an sti block for $250 (broken rod bearing) if that helps you any

not sure year, i could ask though

Arrows 2009-10-29 03:08 PM
If anyone knows of any shops in town willing to do this that would help. I'm going to go talk with Lithia about it but I'm pretty sure they're gonna try and rape my wallet to do the work...

cody 2009-10-29 03:29 PM
http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthre...highlight=aims

sperry 2009-10-29 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows (Post 141498)
If anyone knows of any shops in town willing to do this that would help. I'm going to go talk with Lithia about it but I'm pretty sure they're gonna try and rape my wallet to do the work...
If you're just swapping the shortblock, and you're mechanically inclined, you can do it yourself. It's basically just a little more work than a head-gasket swap.

knucklesplitter 2009-10-29 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M (Post 141408)
I thought '04 STis had the same injectors as the EJ207, but I could very well be wrong. Like I mentioned, it's been years since I really strained to keep up with what swaps where (other than older NA stuff).
As Charlie Murphy would say, "Wrong. Wrong!"

;)

2004 STIs have side-feed 550-ish injectors. Whereas EJ207 have top-feed injectors.

Kevin M 2009-10-29 07:15 PM
I guess that makes me Rick James, bitch! :lol:

(I'm glad that's actually funny to me again. It's been a while.)

Arrows 2009-10-30 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cody (Post 141501)
Thank you very much!

Although I've never ripped apart a car engine, I'm quick to learn mechanical stuff. I just don't have the tools to do it... :|

sperry 2009-10-30 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows (Post 141563)
Thank you very much!

Although I've never ripped apart a car engine, I'm quick to learn mechanical stuff. I just don't have the tools to do it... :|
IIRC the only "odd" tools you'll need are a big-ass allen wrench for the cam bolts, and a 12-point socket (12mm?) for the head bolts (at least my ARP head bolts use 12-point heads... I'm not sure about OEM head studs).

Cory can probably remember off the top of his head what's needed... but I don't remember there being anything too unusual.

Dean 2009-10-31 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry (Post 141564)
IIRC the only "odd" tools you'll need are a big-ass allen wrench for the cam bolts, and a 12-point socket (12mm?) for the head bolts (at least my ARP head bolts use 12-point heads... I'm not sure about OEM head studs).
Allen head socket set at HF is cheap and head/main bolts are 12 points .

MPREZIV 2009-11-02 07:31 AM
10mm allen for the cam bolts, (and a huge breaker bar, and a MattR...) and the head bolts are 14mm twelve point.

Dean 2009-11-02 07:52 AM
The things I found with the cam bolts are.

A. Make sure the allen fits very tight and is fully seated. Use paper to shim if needed. Yes, paper.

B. Move the breaker bar as fast as possible like an impact, don't just do a slow build up of torque. The later for me at least was what almost lead to having to drill one out.... Fast worked great on the other 7 I've done.


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