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-   -   Gauging interest in 100 octane race gas (https://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1035)

MattR 2004-02-03 08:42 PM
Gauging interest in 100 octane race gas
 
Thats right :twisted: i am exploring options to buy a drum of race gas, does anyone else have any interest? Post here and I'll reply with details as they become available.

sperry 2004-02-03 09:18 PM
Re: Gauging interest in 100 octane race gas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattR
Thats right :twisted: i am exploring options to buy a drum of race gas, does anyone else have any interest? Post here and I'll reply with details as they become available.
Uhhhh... unless you get the car tuned for it, you're not gonna notice much, even if you buy enough to run a tank or two of it before an autoX to let the ECU adjust.

MattR 2004-02-03 09:23 PM
Really? I read somewhere else that people noticed performance gains with 100 in their Sti in stock trim, but maybe its not worth it. Hmm? I'll need to read up a bit.

sperry 2004-02-03 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattR
Really? I read somewhere else that people noticed performance gains with 100 in their Sti in stock trim, but maybe its not worth it. Hmm? I'll need to read up a bit.
Probably, if you ran it all the time. But, if you just toss 5 gallons in on race day, I don't know how the ECU is going to ramp up and provide you with any extra power.

A cheaper alternative, though more controversial, would be to run toluene as an additive, but again you'd have to run it all the time:

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

MattR 2004-02-03 11:00 PM
Sweet...i doubt I'll pursue the race gas thing then

sperry 2004-02-03 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattR
Sweet...i doubt I'll pursue the race gas thing then
Actually, after reading that link s'more, it looks like the toluene will run about $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon of 93 octane you mix... so in addition to the $2.00/gallon cost of the 91 you're mixing with, you're right at the $5.00/gallon 100 octane costs. :shock: Might as well just plan on filling up with the real stuff if you can get it for $5/gallon!

tysonK 2004-02-03 11:48 PM
Race gas sounds cool. it's got that going for it.

Kevin M 2004-02-04 05:53 AM
Group buy on race gas would be sweet. 2-3 of us could easily use up a drum in one weekend, so I will be initiating some sort of race gas buy, even if it's by myself. Unless Stead and the other sites have it at the pump...

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-04 08:38 AM
I don't know about your cars, but with a system like mine the extra octane is just a safety factor... I'm gonna be watching my car real closely this summer, after going through the 105* Atwater event last year where it almost blew up it was pinging so bad. If I can't get rid of the pinging any other way this summer I'll start using 100 octane.

sperry 2004-02-04 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
I don't know about your cars, but with a system like mine the extra octane is just a safety factor... I'm gonna be watching my car real closely this summer, after going through the 105* Atwater event last year where it almost blew up it was pinging so bad. If I can't get rid of the pinging any other way this summer I'll start using 100 octane.
Well you could dial back the advance a touch right? You'd think with the extra flow of your new intake, even if you backed off a bit on the timing, you'd still be making more power than you were before the intake manifold, right?

Or you could just come and race with us up here! The altitude will easily stop your pinging! :lol:

As far as race gas, I believe there's a place out in sparks that sells 100. But unless you're like Kevin who will have a race gas ECU map that you can easily switch over to, you'll need to run it 24/7 so the ECU will adapt to it. That's expensive... pretty much plan on doubling your monthly gas expenses... and I'm still not sure you'd notice a lot of power.

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-04 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
Well you could dial back the advance a touch right? You'd think with the extra flow of your new intake, even if you backed off a bit on the timing, you'd still be making more power than you were before the intake manifold, right?

Or you could just come and race with us up here! The altitude will easily stop your pinging! :lol:

As far as race gas, I believe there's a place out in sparks that sells 100. But unless you're like Kevin who will have a race gas ECU map that you can easily switch over to, you'll need to run it 24/7 so the ECU will adapt to it. That's expensive... pretty much plan on doubling your monthly gas expenses... and I'm still not sure you'd notice a lot of power.
Yeah I could retard the timing a little, I don't really want to though since it's already set at the stock 10* BTDC. I'll have to play with it in the next few months as the temperature heats up at events. I'm thinking about getting an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to have a little extra tuning tool.

I'm not sure if you were talking to me or the other WRX guys with that last part... my ECU doesn't adapt to anything. :lol: If I use higher octane it'll be pretty easy, just run the tank down to 2 or 3 gallons before an event, mix in an equal amount of 100 oct., and I've got 95-96 insta-octane for the race. The Monument auto parts store here in Livermore sells the Union-76 "Cool-Blue" 100 octane race gas.

sperry 2004-02-04 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
I'm not sure if you were talking to me or the other WRX guys with that last part... my ECU doesn't adapt to anything. :lol: If I use higher octane it'll be pretty easy, just run the tank down to 2 or 3 gallons before an event, mix in an equal amount of 100 oct., and I've got 95-96 insta-octane for the race. The Monument auto parts store here in Livermore sells the Union-76 "Cool-Blue" 100 octane race gas.
I was talking to the WRX guys. I'm surprised you car even *has* an ECU. :P

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-04 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
I was talking to the WRX guys. I'm surprised you car even *has* an ECU. :P
Hahaha... EEC-IV 0wnz j00!

Dean 2004-02-05 04:53 PM
I have an empty 30Gal, and an unopened but 3 year old 30Gal of 100 octane unleaded in my garage as well as the pump thingy etc... Don't ask.

I have two connections for getting them filled/refilled if we want. I need to burn up the 3 year old stuff in my truck or something this summer...

The extra octane only does you any good if you are experiencing knock/ping, or could do so if your ECU would let you.

I'm not sure even resetting your ECU and running it all the time would make a difference in a stock car or even anything STX legal at Reno altitude.

ZER026D 2004-02-06 10:10 AM
There is a way to make your ECU adjust your timing in 5 seconds. All you have to do is get going on a some where that there is no cars. First get going about 30-35 in 3rd gear. Hear is the tricky part you need to do a little left foot braking. Your going to try to keep your speed at 30-35 while building 6-8 psi of boost for 5-8 seconds. Your timing will advance up to 12 degrees. We tested this on my car with VAGCOM on pump gas in the middle of summer in Arizona we saw mine advance 6 degrees. The WRX is one of the first cheap car's with a octain senser you just have to adjust it. That is why the dealer says you car will get fast in time and why people say there car is slower after reseting the ECU. :D

sperry 2004-02-06 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZER026D
There is a way to make your ECU adjust your timing in 5 seconds. All you have to do is get going on a some where that there is no cars. First get going about 30-35 in 3rd gear. Hear is the tricky part you need to do a little left foot braking. Your going to try to keep your speed at 30-35 while building 6-8 psi of boost for 5-8 seconds. Your timing will advance up to 12 degrees. We tested this on my car with VAGCOM on pump gas in the middle of summer in Arizona we saw mine advance 6 degrees. The WRX is one of the first cheap car's with a octain senser you just have to adjust it. That is why the dealer says you car will get fast in time and why people say there car is slower after reseting the ECU. :D
There's more to that trick... Shiv uses it to get max the IAM before tuning, because tuning w/ a low IAM could mean the car will blow up later if the IAM advances:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv at Vishnu
Just a little trick that has been shown to accelerate the factory ECU's ignition timing learning process.

Background: There is something called "Ignition Advance Multiplier". It represents, by some complicated algorithm, the average learned positive knock correction applied to the ignition maps. It's represented in 1/8th degrees increments. 1 being the lowest and 16 being the highest (1/8 to 2 degrees in absolute terms).

The "happier" (knock free) the car is, the higher the number will be. Conversely, the lower it is, the more knock prone it is. This number, after ECU reset ore ECU swap defaults to 8 and usually creeps up to 16 (if well mapped) through normal driving. Depending on driving characteristics, this can happen within a few hours or a few weeks. Well, here's a way to make it happen in about 5 seconds ....

First: With the car fully warmed up, reset the ECU. This can be done by killing power the ECU or by simply pulling off the neg. battery terminal and pressing the brake pedal for a couple of seconds.

Second: Drive to a nice open road without traffic. Don't go on boost until you get there. Put the car into gear (3rd gear works the best) bring the revs up to 2600rpm. Push the go pedal down slightly so boost stays right around 2-4psi. You will need to MAINTAIN 2500rpm and 2-5psi for approx 5 seconds. You can do this by left-foot braking gently as to prevent acceleration. During these few seconds, the advance multiplier (which you can't see so you'll have to trust me) will go from 8, to 12 and then to 16. Works like a charm. And on our reflashed ECU, is worth an immediate 10-20 horsepower

In an attempt to save a lot of dyno time between reflashes (when the advance multiplier resets itself), I do this little trick after every reflash. In a typical dyno session, it's not unusual to reflash the same car up to 5 times. On the dyno, all I need to do is tell the dyno to hold revs to 2600rpm. Then I just lay on the throttle until I see a few psi of boost... Bingo!

Warning: This little trick artificially speeds up the learning process. This is only a good thing if the re-mapped ECU is mapped properly. If there are trouble-spots where knock is present, this trick will make it even more present. So be careful!

Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
However, I bet all of us up here at altitude are already driving around with a maxed IAM, since the lack of oxygen means it's hard to knock, and the multiplier would already advance just from daily driving. That's why 100 octane would have a very limited effect unless you can tune the car for less fuel, more boost, or more advance outside of the factory IAM advance.

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-06 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
I have an empty 30Gal, and an unopened but 3 year old 30Gal of 100 octane unleaded in my garage as well as the pump thingy etc... Don't ask.
Hope that 3 yr old stuff isn't expensive varnish by now... :lol:

Dean 2004-02-06 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
Hope that 3 yr old stuff isn't expensive varnish by now... :lol:
Since it is in a sealed inert gas filled drum, it is probably still OK for something. I figured I try it in the lawn mower first, and then maybe the F-150 if the lawn mower runs fine...

Otherwise, I'm not sure how you get rid of 30 gallons of varnish...

ArthurS 2004-02-06 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Otherwise, I'm not sure how you get rid of 30 gallons of varnish...
Pryamid Lake Bonfire. Ill bring the beer.

AtomicLabMonkey 2004-02-06 04:03 PM
*WHOOOMP*

"Whoa, where did Art's eyebrows go?" :lol:

ArthurS 2004-02-06 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
*WHOOOMP*

"Whoa, where did Art's eyebrows go?" :lol:
Funny things is that has almost happened once. Little to much gasoline on the palets (sp?).

ZER026D 2004-02-06 05:18 PM
My friend almost started a forest fire like that.

sperry 2004-02-06 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurS
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
*WHOOOMP*

"Whoa, where did Art's eyebrows go?" :lol:
Funny things is that has almost happened once. Little to much gasoline on the palets (sp?).
I blew up a bunch of propane from our gas grill in my face like that when I was 12 (the stupid lighter clicker thing was on the fritz). Singed off my eyebrows and burnt about an inch off the hair over my forehead. It also knocked me back about 5 feet... 'course I don't know how much of that was from the explosion, or from my reaction to get the fuck away from the explosion. I was loud enough that my mom heard it inside and came out to see wth happened. :lol:

Kevin M 2004-04-22 10:25 PM
BUMP... so where is the place in Sparks that sells the 100octane gas? Once I get my conversion done I'm gonna want to know...

MattR 2004-04-22 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
BUMP... so where is the place in Sparks that sells the 100octane gas? Once I get my conversion done I'm gonna want to know...
Its in Reno, a friend of mine has to call this one guy, etc. If you really want some, I'll look into it again.

ArthurS 2004-04-23 01:04 AM
I have the guys number at my office. If Matt, can't get it before I can, I'll post it.

Dean 2004-04-29 03:41 PM
100 octane at the pump in Sac?
 
OK, I'm bumping this to see if anybody knows of any actual gas stations in the Sacramento area that have 100 Octane at the pumps.

I know there used to be some 76 stations that did. Obviously, Thunderhill, and Sear's point do, but any other on the street locations?

Maybe on the way to Atwater? :-)

Kevin M 2004-04-30 12:32 PM
According to Scott@S-Squared, there are no stations here with 100 at the pump. :(

WRXRallyBlue 2005-03-23 10:37 AM
You can get 100 at the 76 station on plumb and lakeside. It's not at the pump but they've got drums of it. 110, too.

sti deede 2005-03-23 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXRallyBlue
You can get 100 at the 76 station on plumb and lakeside. It's not at the pump but they've got drums of it. 110, too.
Wow that's interesting....Is that station still open? I thought that one closed a while back.

WRXRallyBlue 2005-03-24 08:49 AM
Yeah it's still open. The drums of 100 and 110 are the same price, too :D

MikeSTI 2005-03-24 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXRallyBlue
Yeah it's still open. The drums of 100 and 110 are the same price, too :D
time to go buy some gas contianor's :twisted:

Pat R. 2005-03-24 09:40 AM
Casazza Oil on Commercial Row 323-1866.

AtomicLabMonkey 2005-03-24 10:02 AM
The only 110 octane I've seen from U-76 is leaded. Make damn sure when you buy race gas that you're getting unleaded, not leaded.

sperry 2005-03-24 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
The only 110 octane I've seen from U-76 is leaded. Make damn sure when you buy race gas that you're getting unleaded, not leaded.
Last time I was at Thunderhill, I was talking with one of the instructors that told me "yeah, my student just put a full tank of 110 leaded in his street car". :lol:

I guess he probably didn't hurt the car since he realized it before he started it, so if they siphoned the tank dry and refilled w/ unleaded he'd probably be okay.

Kevin M 2005-03-24 02:24 PM
I thought leaded gas was supposed to come from a larger nozzle that doesn't fit in unleaded fill tubes?

Nick Koan 2005-03-24 02:38 PM
I don't think the same rules apply when you are pumping gas from barrels.

Kevin M 2005-03-24 03:39 PM
Thunder Hill has 93, 100, and 110 leaded at the pump.

khail19 2005-03-25 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sti deede
Wow that's interesting....Is that station still open? I thought that one closed a while back.
It was the Shell on Plumb that closed a while ago. The 76 is open.

WRXRallyBlue 2005-03-26 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
The only 110 octane I've seen from U-76 is leaded. Make damn sure when you buy race gas that you're getting unleaded, not leaded.
That's only a problem if you have cats, though I'm sure most of us do :(

MattR 2005-03-26 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXRallyBlue
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
The only 110 octane I've seen from U-76 is leaded. Make damn sure when you buy race gas that you're getting unleaded, not leaded.
That's only a problem if you have cats, though I'm sure most of us do :(
Are you Sure?

Dean 2005-03-26 08:11 PM
It's not cats, lead destroys O2 sensors as well as not being good for cats...

Kevin M 2005-03-26 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
It's not cats, lead destroys O2 sensors as well as not being good for cats...
Yup.

WRXRallyBlue 2005-03-27 03:26 PM
O..

Evo Mike 2005-04-23 01:51 PM
i would be interested once i get the 100 octane map tuned.. what about the 5 gallon drums? i've done some looking and there are a few places in reno that sell those.. are they worth it?

tysonK 2005-05-23 09:50 PM
So the latest Sport Compact Car had a big article on Octane Boosters and Toulene that was pretty comprehensive.

I'll try to remember to bring the issue to the meet.

Kevin M 2005-05-24 12:47 AM
Yeah, they claim that a couple off-the-shelf type things raised CA 91 to like 92.7 and 93.0 or something.

sperry 2005-05-24 12:15 PM
http://www.hitimewine.com/istarimages/p/p-101410.gif

bruspeed 2005-05-24 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonK
So the latest Sport Compact Car had a big article on Octane Boosters and Toulene that was pretty comprehensive.

I'll try to remember to bring the issue to the meet.
Yes, awesome writeup, ugly broad in the pictures, but good information none the less.

Dean 2007-05-07 07:29 PM
Nudge...

So, I've heard stories of new sources in Reno... Can anyone confirm any sources of 100 unleaded?

One was an actual pump at a Sonoco(?) on 4th st. near sparks. Checked that and didn't find anything obvious.

Scott mentioned somewhere that you had to pay inside and "drive round back"... Washoe oil maybe?


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