The last? brake fluid thread... HA
 

Edited 11:13PM 11/6/04 due to my misreading the price on the Neo web page.
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OK, I picked up some Ford brake fluid Friday, but decided to do some camparisons just for yucks, and got some interesting results...
I had a couple base criteria. Price, < $1.00/oz, and > 500 degree f dry boiling point, and 284 f or > wet.. This eliminated many, and I pared more that didn't have the bang for the buck.

Ford/Motorcraft High Peformance is locally available in single small bottles for cheap. If you bleed very often, and don't want to wait/pay shipping, it is the choice.

ATE Type 200/ATE Super Blue: Due to it's higher wet BP is a better choice if you bleed less often, and is almost as good as the Ford dry. The 2 different colors are great for flushing since you can tell when you are done, but the large bottles, almost 3x the size of the Ford mean you may end up throwing some away since you don't want to use an open bottle after a month or 2 IMHO. I have not found it locally, but haven't looked real hard. Best Froogle cost is actually lower per ounce than the Ford, but shipping and waiting will cost you. :)

Motul 600: This probably the best choice for best performance in this price range, and a good choice for people who really don't like to bleed, or flush. The BPs kick both the ATE, and Ford stuff in the butt, and it is only twice the cost. Again, no idea if it is available locally, or at what price.

NEO SUPER DOT 610: This stuff is right at my limit of $1.00 per ounce and wasn't that much better than the Motul, so I wasn't even going to include it. If you realy don't want to bleed/change your fluid, it might be worth the almost double the price from the Motul, but I don't think it is that much better.

It might be interesting to switch between Motul, and ATE Super Blue. Maybe I'll try some Motul for the heck of it before my next winter event.

Product size price $/ounce DryBP/WetBP price from

Ford/Motorcraft 12oz. $3.58 $0.30/oz 550/284 Jones-West Ford per bottle retail price, case discount avaialable...
ATE 33.8oz $9.00 $0.27 536/392 TDI parts
Motul 600 16.9oz $9.50 $0.56/0z 593/420 Oneida Suzuki
NEO SUPER DOT 610 12oz $11.95 $1.00/oz 610/421 Baker Precision

All prices are the best I could find as of 11/6/04 from Froogle, or what I really paid at Jones West on 11/5/04

Info and impulse to do this from...
Colorado Region SCCA
Volvo Maintenance FAQ
Stoptech

Nice work Dean!

I'm sure this thread will heat up in April.

At least we have enough people that track and auto-x their cars that its possible to get some awesome compairsons going on.

One thing to note, anything that comes in a plastic bottle will absorb water while sitting on the shelf. Not much, but I'd bet that Motorcraft stuff sits around for a year or two if it's in the back of the shelf at the Ford dealer.

Also, since I've got the StopTechs, I can't imagine using only one .5L bottle anymore.... in fact a full liter of ATE seems just about right for the new big brakes, just something else for you Brembo wielders out there to consider.

Yeah, the ATE size is awesome for flushing, but not so good when you're just bleeding.

Oops, there are two different NEOs, and the price drop was not on the 610. This takes it back to $1.00 an ounce. Not worth it IMHO. I edited the original post..

Scott has a point, but I think you are more likely to waste more with the ATE, especially if all you want to do is bleed, not flush.

You can actually mail order the Ford fluid in metal botles if you want.

Anybody actually seen any science about brake fluid in plastic bottles. I just tried to find any hard science behind the claims, but couldn't find anything but hearsay. I admit plastic might be slightly more porous than tin, but I can only see that being an issue in an environment that changes temperature quite a bit. Probably not a huge fluctuation in an auto parts warehouse.

A 2-3 piece tin bottle might easily have an imperfect seal as well. I've seen aged unopened aluminum cans that no liquid left in them. Haven't sean any similar plastic bottles.

Let me be clear, I am not saying not to use ATE. I like ATE, and have used it for years in my Audis, including 50K+ miles, and 3500 or so track miles. I have also used the Ford fluid for probably 7000 track miles in 3 cars, and probably 80K+ on the road. They both have their advantages and disadvantages IMHO. Enumerating those differences was the purpose behind this thread. I haven't tried the Motul, but probably will just for the heck of it, even though it is significantly higher in price.

from the new SposrtsCar magazine:

Prospeed GS610 Brake Fluid:

610 degree boiling point $39.95 www.gs610.com

AP Racing PRF Brake Fluid:

608 degree boiling point $28.95 www.essexparts.com

Thanks Tyson... I actually considered the AP. but it was over my price limit, and it actualy has numbers worse than the Motul at 590/410...

610/421 for 16 ounces or basicaly $2.50 an ounce...

Again, over my $1 limit per ounce. The Prospeed has slightly better numbers at 610/421, but if I read their page correctly, it is not campatible with other fluids, so to switch to it correctly probably requires a complete dismantling of the brake system and possibly the replacement of all the seals... I'll pass on this one for now until there is more info...

anywhere I can buy the ATE Type 200/ATE Super Blue in town?

Might try Sport Haus, or C&amp;C...

Bump for change to the Ford fluid. See Corner Carvers thread. Basically, the part number changed and the dry boiling point dropped from 550 to 500- which is still pretty good, just not as good as Motul or Ate Typ200. However, since the formula changed, I'd be interested in knowing what the wet boiling point is now. That could very well have improved, and if so, it would actually make the cheap stuff better for most of our needs.

so 1 liter will do for my brembo f+r brakes with a complete flush:?:

It is real close, but yes.

Resurrecting this one. Anyone know of somewhere in town to pick up some decent brake fluid???
C&C said they carry Redline brand?? He didn't sound like he was all that sure of it either.

Summit doesn't have any Super blue in stock. I was going to try the Blue or the Motul 600. Unless someone can recommend a good fluid that is in stock in town.
Thanks

Don't know if Reno Brake carries anything, but might be worth a call. Might also try some of the other "Race" shops. Like ones with Volvos doing burn outs in their commercials, There is also the guys who recently posted in the vendors forum, Alchemy, Sport Haus and others...

Let us know what you find.

I have 3 sealed bottles of Motul 600 available if you want to replace or pay for them. Sorry, no ATE on the shelf.

Thanks for the advice and the offer for the 600. I checked with Reno brake, they carry a DOT 5 from Raybestos, didn't bother him about the specs. Tried Alchemy a couple times, no answer. I had a bad experience at the shop that has the volvo doing a burnout and refuse to give them my money.
Finally found some Blue at Sport Haus, good call!! In stock and $26.56/can. As far as the price, I guess you pay for convenience, summit has it at 13.95/can but it's not in stock at any of their warehouses. I may just give the wilwood DOT 4 a try, it's at 626/417 and 18.95 for 16.9oz. Have you heard anything good or bad about Wilwood?

NO DOT 5!!! It doesn't mix with 3 & 4, and has very specific uses which we do not meet.

Ouch... That is a bit of markup...

If I recall, Wilwood is just too pricey. Even at $26.56/l for ATE, it is still better than $38/l for Wilwood, and I think I found something that said it was even more hydroscopic than most DOT 4s. Might call a couple more German car places. They often lean toward ATE.

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/ate/a...blue_fluid.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/ate/a...e200_amber.jsp

$12/can. Go pick it up.

Or shipping is only $7.93 for one can. $8.46 for two.

Thanks Dean, I'll stay away from the wilwood then. The blue will work fine with the Brembos from what I've read, correct?

And thanks Cody for the Tire Rack suggestion, now I just have to beg the girlfriend to go out there to pick it up for me so I can save the extra $8.

Good find Cody. I forget about TR since they moved for some reason.

I have used quite a bit of blue in my STI, WRX, Audis, etc... As I and others have said, the Gold is allegedly a little better, but the Blue is fine and has the awesome benefit of being blue when you are flushing the system.

Just ordered from tirerack, doubtful I'll find it cheaper anywhere else.
Thanks to both of you for all of your help.

Glad it worked out. :)

StopTech did some extensive testing and found that the Blue degrades relatively quickly, but the Typ200 is still good stuff. I personally recommend using Blue as a buffer between the old and new stuff during a flush so you know exactly when the old is gone from all 4 circuits.

Link? :)

Nope. Word of mouth from a friend who used to work there.

napa carries some stuff called dot 5.1, i have not used it but the bottle say 550F and its compatible with dot 3, 4. I have not tried it but it might be an affordable option, i think it was like 5$ for .5L

5.1 is OK (completely different than Silicone based DOT 5)and may be good/great depending on real wet/dry numbers.

All but the Ford fluid in post 1 exceed the 5.1 standard of 509/356. What brand/product name is the Napa stuff under and what are the specs?

Stoptech has a great article on brake fluids if you never read it from my indirect link in the first post.

I suggest anyone who bought a cheap pressure bleeder read that section... and then sell it on Nasioc to someone else. Read the rest, but the last bit is priceless.

Here's my opinion on the "cheap" pressure bleeders: fluid under 30 psi air pressure for 15 minutes is not going to collect enough air to make a difference on a car that's getting its fluid replaced 3 and 4 times a year. I use a pressure bleeder because I bleed my brakes so often, it's a PITA to do it w/ two people all the time.

Considering the low humidity in Reno, I'm not worried about air potentially getting into the fluid, and my experience at the track backs it up, as I've never noticed a difference between brakes bled w/ a pressure bleeder or by hand (er... foot).

Now, if you're a shop that's putting brake fluid into a car that's going to be driven for the next 5 years w/o a flush... yeah, take the extra step and store that fluid in a vacuum can, use a bladdered bleeder, etc. But if you're like me w/ a track car that gets bled before each event... IMO, you can get by just fine w/ a month old opened can of SuperBlue and a cheap pressure bleeder. I've never had an issue w/ a spongy pedal or fluid fade.

What you say is fair for your circumstances, and they kind of say as much in the article, but if you have access to a spare leg and foot to push the pedal, that is going to be better.

Probably the real gotcha is if you do not empty, clean and DRY your pressure bleeder, and hose after every use and check before use.

Old fluid, condensation or anything in there before you start a new flush/bleed is going to be bad.

The color really helped when flushing, someone was a genius when they thought up that concept.

I heard the blue turns to straight GOOP if you overheat it, so be real careful with that. Had a friend that took 3 flushes to get all that crap out of the system, so I stay well away from it.

I use Motul 600 and a motive brake bleeder, never had any problems.

Also dont forget Castrol SRF, it is THE BEST hands down fluid you can buy. At $75 a liter though, it frickin better be. Thats what all the race teams use though, so if you wanna be baller status, have at it lol.

Where? I have never had it turn to goop, it just doesn't hold it's dry point as well as the gold is the story I believe from Stoptech. How can it take more than one flush if done right? A flush implies you run enough through to remove all the old. This takes far more than the capacity of the system and many bleeds per wheel regardless of what the previous fluid was. The blue color just tells you when you are done. Flushing from one yellow fluid to another how do you know when you are done?
No, it isn't, and probably far more race teams don't use it than do. Other DOT 4/5.1 fluids have higher dry boiling points, and race teams change fluid often enough that the wet boiling point is meaningless which is where SRF excels. SRF should not be mixed with other fluids and if you choose to use it, it is recommended that the brake system to be dismantled and/or cleaned/flushed with alcohol or something. Dismantling is probably cheaper than flushing with enough SRF to purge the intermediate alcohol. Some would suggest that seals should be replaced as well. And while it is not a pure silicone based DOT 5 fluid, it does share one of the downsides of being more compressible.

I go back and forth between ATE Blue and Gold, and have never had any issues, and I've operated at some very high brake temps. In fact, I have blue in the car now.

Oh, and the motive brake bleeder is the best money I've ever spent, I love that thing.

My strategy is to run Motul or Typ200 with a reservoir full of SuperBlue to get visual confirmation between flushes. Blue works just fine, but it does stain plastics and degrades some over time.

I use speed bleeder with Ate Blue/200.

I've the most awesome bleeder in my garage, hooks up to my air compressor and pulls out the fluid at the calipers. I don't know what its called but I'm going to have to buy one when the owner of this one wants it back.

He should probably fire up his compressor and find out if it even still works first. :lol:

I used to be a compressor mechanic? DOD style

i have motul 600 and have never boiled my brakes and you can buy it locally

Where?

I have a few spare bottles since my car is down if you want... Can bring them to the lake.

Awesome, thanks Dean

Motor machine and suply not sure on the adress but if you google it it's there. I bought some recently it was little more tha online but you don't have to ship(they Carrie the whole motul line, oil, trans, etc)

Van, when you figure out what it's called let me know. I'd be interested in getting one as well. Thx

It's called "cheap bleeder that I got at Harbor Freight." ;) They're still there I'm sure. Probably like $18 or something. There's two parts- the part that hooks to a compressor and pulls the fluid out of the bleeder, and a little reservoir bottle that you invert over the brake fluid reservoir to stop it from going dry.

I just tried out some Wildwood EXP 600. it performed perfectly in my last 2 rallies.

I would also fully trust super blue / gold as well.

I've used Motul 600 in my Sti, great stuff as well. really if that's your potential list, you can't go wrong.

Motel is cheapest at micheal motor works, summit for super blue / wilwood.

I was riding with a guy at SMMP in Pahrump, and he was using blue. We went off at the hairpin because he lost pedal completely. That shit turned to goop when we bled it, it had the consistency of chewed bubble gum stuck to the pavement on a hot day. I dont know, you guys have subys so maybe its different but our brembos get HOT. Hot enough to turn the calipers black. Mine have started to turn a bit of brownbo too, but when I put on my two piece rotors it helped quite a bit on fade during 30 min sessions. If you guys havent had a problem with ATE then I wouldnt worry about it, but I have heard a few horror stories about it turning gummy and taking multiple flushes to get it all out (in chunks) on evoM.

All I can say is the bigtime trackwhores on evoM use mainly Castrol SRF. Then its either Motul rbf600 or the Amsoil racing dot 4 (its pretty cheap too, similar dry as motul but a bit lower wet IIRC). Im just going by what the other track junkies talk about across the country, like I said I use motul and have never had a problem.

IMO, anyone that's heating their brakes that much is probably over braking, or has added too much horsepower without addressing their brakes with proper ducting. More than likely, a little bit of racecraft will take care of that overheating issue... brake a little sooner, a little lighter, then lift off earlier and smoother and carry the speed through the corner instead of relying on the AWD and big power to make up for over slowing on corner entry. Many drivers with lots of power and traction tend to rely on the engine to make up for poor apex speed because they simply don't know they're giving up so much because they're still faster than all the other lower hp cars out there.

Additionally, I'd be keen to know what other fluids they might have been running w/ that SuperBlue. Some of those fluids are not compatible and result in that goop you're describing.

What he said... I am pretty sure I told Scott the sooner, lighter, smoother stuff a few years back. :)

It sounds more like a chemical reaction than fluid failure. I have seen a lot of overheated fluid and never seen anything other than dirty liquid.

That is quite possible, he may not have bled whatever he had in there first before he put in the ATE. And evos are heavy pigs, thats why I addressed brakes early on. Some of them learn the "off" way hehe. Nobody wants to spend money on brakes until theyre sliding towards a wall at 110 I guess!

The right fluid (the purpose of this thread) and good pads make all the difference with any setup. Some cooling helps as well.

STI Brembos are the same and it weighs about the same, so same issues, but even the smaller WRX setup is OK with good stuff. Not race ready, but trackable...

Going off due to lack of brakes means they weren't paying attention. Brakes seldom fail all at once. Ignore fade at your own risk. :)