2005 PAX factors
 

Edit: Nevermind, the damn cut and paste from the site doesn't work. I might as well type it out now.

Or maybe just link it instead. :p

Our classes so far:

It's good to know I have that huge 0.002432 disadvantage over Mike K. :(

I am still amazed that modifying a stock STi and going from tas to tesp will result in a *better* pax. I would have thought that little anomaly would have been corrected over the off season.

SCCA National cares not about PAX... PAX lives in the mind of one man in the Chicago area. It is crap, but nothing better exists.

If I had many spare hours, I would do the math and statistics to come up with something, but alas, nobody has offered to pay me to do so...

Yeah, I like how D Stock is lower than E and F Stock. :lol:

Yes, and interestingly, Rick Ruth is a family friend of the Debordes. (Not that that will help any of US!)

Dean explained it pretty simply atually. Most of the SP allowances don't help an STi that much. Other than the power gains from intake and exhaust, coilovers, and a little gain in wheel size... well, you can see for yourself that even Matt and Eric's SM STis aren't much faster than a stock car. It's the A Stock classification that's wrong, ESP is pretty much right IMO.

mmmmm .7705

Now I'll just have to find some way to make that useful :lol:

I would think that depends on the track. On higher speed tracks I am sure they will 0wnz0rz me, the power and coilovers will make a big difference.

Drive faster! :cool:

Azenis Sports. The 225/45 would fit on your stockers. ;)

I tried that. It only makes me hit cones faster.

Drive slower! :cool:

Let me drive it. :twisted: Oh, and what kevin said...

Hey Dean, what's keeping you from running DSP for the Challenges? You gain like .005 in PAX.

Edit: Duh, it's ESP. Still, .002456... :p

I'm sure Tyson wouldn't mind :devil:

Checking for understanding, you think classifying the STi in AS is wrong?

Yes. I personally think it's a B Stock car. Weren't there a few STis at nationals that got clobbered pretty good in A Stock?

As I previously mentioned, classic SP mods are relatively worthless on an STI. Brakes, intake, exhaust, wheels, LSD and even suspension add minimally at best.

Lets look at other ESP cars...

Camaro, Firebird, Mustang... Mostly F Stock... These cars respond to all of these mods exceptionally well...

So the long and the short is both are fair classifications. It is PAX that is broken.

You would see it compete with the RX-8, MR2 Turbos, 350Z's and Mazdaspeed Miatas? :huh: They would so dominate the class.

It's tough, because I think ESP may be the best place for it to play. But then that's where the wrx has to go too, under SP rules.

Good point Debbie. I guess there just isn't a good class for the STi.

You had to know this was coming...

I think even a stock STi is far more capable than most SP-prepped ponycars.. I don't think it should be classed in ESP. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore personally, I've just never understood why they put it there competing against such a bunch of crappy cars.

I agree. The STi is too much for ESP. Granted it's not overly competative, but just looking at the STi vs. WRX aspect, you can tell it's too fast.

IMO the "flavor" of ESP is "pony car". And while I will agree that the STi is a next generation muscle car, it's not a big, loud, heavy, RWD car that the class was intended for.

I'm not really sure where the STi belongs. It's too fast for BS, and not quite an AS car. It gets owned by the STU pax. It's a pax killer coming from ESP. To be honest, the best class for the STi is Street Mod. :lol: So, everyone needs to make their STi's into 400hp SM cars and go up against the M3's!

Pony Shmoney... Classing is not necessarliy about like cars. There will always be fast and slow cars in a class. A well prepared SP Muscle car should be competitive with an SP STI. Last year's nationals prove it...

I think the problem is that the cars are all bunched together in A, B, C stock, then a few cars here and there in remaining classes, they need to spread out ABCDE stock a bit more, and allow for the different stock trim cars to fit into like "classes".

STi is a class killer in ESP, but I don;t think it does so well in plain old SM, in TSM it gains a lot.

I'm not convinced, and neither is the SEB. Show me the data to back this up...

Well, it's my assumption based on street tire. Not Race tire class, so that really doesnt mean the same. I think the added traction the AWD provides over a Street Tire 2WD ESP car is substantial.

Hah. If SP STi's & EVO's weren't keeping up with the ponycars at Nationals then the import drivers simply aren't good enough, or they haven't developed their cars enough. The imports are lighter, smaller, have better suspension types & geometry, usually better brakes, I would guess a stiffer chassis (because you'd have to try pretty hard to make a chassis more flexible than the Mustang), and the same amount if not more power. :rolleyes:

Let's compare the '04 STi w/ the '05 Mustang GT along the lines of things you can't modify in ESP:

STi:
4-pot 12.7" Brembo front brakes
2-pot 12.3" Brembo rear brakes
3263lb curb weight
300hp@6000rpm
300ft@4000rpm
6spd with transmission cooler, full time awd
- front SureTrac limited slip
- rear mechanical limited slip
- center DCCD driver controlled differential

2005 Mustang GT:
12.4" 2-pot sliding caliper front brakes
11.8" 1-pot sliding caliper rear brakes
3560lbs curb weight
300hp@5750rpm
320ft@4500rpm
5-speed transmission
- rear LSD on live axle
- optional traction control

My money's on the STi.

I've flogged an 05GT around town here, and my money would be on the STi as well.

Opinions are like, well you know...

If Rally cars were such class killers, I would expect to see more of them in winning possitions. And when they do, it appears the Evo is quicker. Perhaps when they get more development time on them, they will be, but I just don't see the data supporting it right now.


This is Data:
04 Nationals, Topeka: 11 Trophy positions of 38 entries.
1 Sam Strano 01 Chevrolet Camaro 97.206
2 Mark Jorgensen 98 Ford Mustang Cobra 97.296
3 Jason Tipple 04 Mistubishi Evo VIII 98.241
4 Steve Eguina 96 Chev. Camaro Ss-R 98.250
5 Eric Stemler 03 Mitsubishi Evolution 98.462
6 John Tak 04 Mitsubishi Evo 98.491
7 Michael Snyder 02 Chevy Camaro 98.991
8 Navid Kahangi 03 Mitsubishi Evo VIII 99.228
9 Henry Botkin 02 Chevy Z28 Black 99.246
10 Chris Hartman 04 Subaru Impreza STi 99.513
11 Kiko Seibt 04 Subaru WRX STi 99.519

05 Natioonal Tour:
El Paso 3 trophies, 8 competitors, First Rally car 5th
1 95 Pontiac Firebird Brian Weikert 117.983
2 95 Pontiac Formula Larry Petrucci 119.014
3 98 Chevy Camaro Richard Rippy 125.098
Only Rally car:
5 04 Mitsubishi EVO Robert Love 125.998

SanDiego: 3 trophies, 7 competitors, no STIs, Evos do well
1 05 Mitsubishi Evolution R Navid Kahangi 98.093
2 02 Chevrolet Camaro 99.665
3 03 Mitsubishi Evo VIII 99.807

Walnut Ridge: 4 trophies, 11 competitors
1 01 Chevrolet Camaro Sam Strano 89.785
2 98 Ford Mustang Cobra Mark Jorgensen 90.513
3 04 Subaru Impreza WRX Jeff Templeton 92.927 (I assume this is an STI)
4 Subaru WRX James Elterman 93.155 (I assume this is an STI)

Houston: 2 trophies, 6 competitors No Rally Cars
1 88 Pontiac Trans-Am Mark Madarash 100.870
2 00 Pontiac Trans AM Matthew Patterson 107.045

Atlanta: 2 trophies, 4 competitors All Rally cars, no muscle cars. Very interesting, but very small run group for a tour event.
1 Subaru WRX Joel Adam Fehrman 83.359
2 05 Subaru Impreza STi Tom Pulliam 84.058

Dean, you're making me quote myself here.

The STi has been around for what, a year or two? The Camaro and Mustang platforms have been around, essentially unchanged, since 1993 for the Camaros and 1979 for the Mustangs. People have been auto-xing them in ESP ever since they came out, and know how to develop them to the edge of the SP rules. Give it another year or two, and the STi guys will be all over that class.

Quoted for troof.

Troof!!

You are all right, and the SEB and I are wrong... [Shakes Head]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather drive an STI than a pony car, but I just don't believe they are as unevenly matched in SP trim as y'a'll do.

Also, as Matt mentioned, AWD + street tires is a significant help, but RWD + Hoosiers doesn't loose much if anything to AWD and Hoosiers. There mere fact you can wedge a set of 275s, or 315s under the fenders of a pony car without blowing up bearings, axles, and can still stear is a good enough starter for me.

I think we agree to disagree on this one.

Sweet, I said something constructive!

I'm sure you will make up for it soon enough... :lol:

Wouldn't be the first time the SEB was wrong about something.