Harness options
 

I am thinking about getting either 4-point or 5-point and once again find my self brainless on the subject. After getting so many rides with these belts, I love the feel on the track compared to the stock belts. Helps me stop looking like such an old man leaning forward.

questions:
1. Do I need a harness bar or do they make them so they attach to the rear seats? (I think I remember Dean's car was setup that way)
2. Are they permanent or easily removed for the factory belts for daily driving?
3. Where have you all purchased them and what am I looking at spending?
4. Are they easy to install?

Any input greatly appreciated.

There are plenty of good options. One of the most popular in our circle is the Schroth harness setup, which is DOT legal for raod use. I think they're around $150, bolt right in, and do the job well.

However I, being a cheap bastard, found a 5 point latch-and-lock harness from racerwholesale.com for about $70. My only complaint is that I got a pull-down lap setup instead of pull-up style. Otherwise, I like it. I am about to move it over to the passenger side though, as I understand that many instructors at places like Audi Club events won't ride with you if they don't have a similar belt setup. So I'm shopping for a cam-lock style 5 point harness with pull-up lap belts to put on the driver's side.

Installing a belt and/or harness bar system is simple, just a matter of removing and replacing a few bolts. They all use existing mounting points.

So once in, you pretty much don't use the stock belts anymore for daily use?

I'll check it out.

No, the Schroth ones don't replace your stock seatbelts, you can use either or (both is not recomended)

No, I always use my stock belts unless I'm autocrossing or on the track. They're safer.

I have been told that harnesses are only for when there is no chance of rolling the car, like autocross. At track days/solo I you should stick to the stock seatbelts unless you have a roll cage, because if you go off course and roll the car, when the roof gets dented in and you can't move sideways in your seat your neck will get damaged.

You heard correctly...I feel the same way, As much as I'd like to use my harnesses on the track, I would prefer to be able to bend to the side.

There's some good tricks to tighten your seat belt so it stays, that's the best bet for stock belts.

I would like to get a harness bar I don't know who to contact for that though.

Yeah, I just twist it up and pull the twist through the buckle. That works okay, but I'm also looking at a CG Lock and possibly some harnesses as well (only for auto-x).

I was checking that out as well. $70 for both sides and seems simple. There's also the trick Dean showed me:

Move your seat back all the way, put on the seatbelt, then slide the seat forward to your position. That does the same thing as the CG, but also tightens the shoulder belt, just doesn't look as cool as the harness.

I guess looking cool in a harness with a broken neck isn't really all that cool.

Thanks for all the info, I guess I'll be stickin' to stock belts then.

I have a used 5 point harness TRW Sabelt Red it's a Y type cam lock for $50 ??.

Do not do this!!!

Seat belts need to be *flat* or they can fail in an incident. Ever hear of a fella named Dale Earnhardt? This impact w/ the wall that killed his was esitmated to be approximately 35mph. The problem that that he liked his seat so low that his belts did not loop through the buckles nice and flat, causing the belt to "dump" and fail, which sent the back of his head steering wheel at 35mph, killing him pretty much instantly.

Do not "fold" your belts to get them to tighten!! Follow the procedure outlined by doubleurx... it's know around here as "the seatbelt trick" and it works really well.

Sparco makes one that bolts in, although, I do not know if it replaces the factory belts. Also, I've heard they are pricey

This the reason the Scroth is the only one with DOT certification. If you look, there are a couple folds of belt in a little plastic thingy on the inside shoulder belt that will fail under significant impact allowing your body to rotate and bend.

It is the only 4 or more point belt system I would use in a car without a cage.

Whoops. I thought that *was* the seatbelt trick. I can't really do the real seatbelt trick reliably with electric seats. I've tried, but it really isn't a decent solution.

No, the "Folds" are there for reducing the instantaneous decelration forces when you hit something. If you are using a Schroth harness on a late model WRX, and you roll over, you're much worse off than if you were in OEM belts. In any other type of colliision, they're great though. Rollover protection is the only difference.

That being said, I personally will continue to use my harnesses at the track. I think the tradeoff of better car control versus the miniscule chance I'll roll my car is worth it. Just my $.02 though and I don't disagree with anybody who chooses not to use theirs at the track.

zpeed, is that belt a pull-up or pull-down lap type? If it's the pull-up type, I'll take it.

You are correct about not being significant help in pure rollover or other accident withour sufficient impact to fail thet bundle, but please go read the Schroth web site.

The folds are there to allow the upper body to fold and roll to some extent under impact to avoid submarining and move the body away from the sides of the vehicle. If they were strictly for deceleration, the folds would be on both sides and/or the rear point would not be sewn solid, and they would not be side specific.

That's interesting info Dean. I always figured that the DOT wouldn't have approved them if they were somehow less safe than stock seatbelts... but the basic logic behind a tensioned belt keeping you upright seemed pretty solid. It's nice to hear there's actually some engineering applied to the roll-over problem!

Now I don't feel so bad about wearing my Schroth belts at the track. :lol:

I read up, and the Schroth belts are definitely good stuff. Rollovers aside, they seem like an absolutely excellent option.

Great, so now what? I think I may get these belts. At the last Audi event, I took rides in 4 cars and they all had them and only one car had a roll cage.

I've used my belts at track events, and felt guilty because I thought I was trading roll-over safety for comfort. However, if Schroth really has engineered some roll-over protection into their belts I won't hesitate to wear them at the track in the future.

The bottom line is this: racing and high-speed driving is dangerous. You're taking a risk every time you go out there... no amount of safety equipment will ever protect you 100%. So, do the research, find out what your options are, and make an educated decision.

Personally, I think the belts are probably as safe is stock belts, or they wouldn't have received DOT approval as a legal replacement. But that's my decision, for my own safety. If anyone wishes to ride in my car, the stock belts will always be available, until I get a cage, in which case stock belts are actually less safe than a full harness.

So, I witnessed a fellow autocrosser (who will remain nameless) actually put the seatbelt on, then put this strap thing, like a big belt, around his ribs and around the back of the seat, then cinch it down. I'd hate to have an incident with some contraption like that in use. (It was someone who co-drove my car)

As far as the Scroth's on the track, that is very cool. I think for the HPDE's and such, I may try them. I love the way the Scroth's hold me in place.

Man at that point you might as well dowse yourself in lighter fluid before you start the car.

I like to bolt a large spike in place of my airbag. I feel it really lends to the "holy shit, don't fuck up" aspect to my driving. :lol:

Matt - I think the belt you're referring to is a torso belt - Racerwholesale sells them. I think they are fine for autox. I'm not sure I would use it for track though.

http://www.racerwholesale.com/catalo...roducts_id=195

I thought about getting one to keep me even tighter in the seat, but decided against it due to my seat's contour - didn't think it would help that much since the sides of the seat are bolstered, plus I didn't want it to interfere with any airbags.

I find the 'seatbelt trick' holds me in very well, and figured it was better than the CG Lock also, which only tightens down around your lap - not your upper body. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind the CG Lock. I know I can drive better with a harness since my upper body is stable and I'm not using my grip on the steering wheel to keep my upper body from flying around. That's why I still want that feeling of being fastened down by using the seatbelt trick, that I don't think you get with a CG lock.

For track -- I would look into the approved harness recommendation and understand what its pros & cons are - but as others have said, the final decision and the responsibility for your safety based on your decision is still yours.

Sorry it's a pull-down

Can you bring it to a meet or something? I'd still like to take a look at it.

I never make it to the meeting :( I live down South by Wal-mart and work neat Summit Racing in Sparks. So let me know?

The only tech info I found on the Schroth website was a blurb about the anti-submarining aspect of their street belts, which only mentions it in the context of frontal impacts - it doesn't say anything about roll overs. I'm not sure I'd trust the inboard belt to unfold during a pure roll over; it won't generate the kind of tension in the belt that a frontal impact will.

Exactly. In a 'crash' they definitely kick ass, possibly even better than OEM. But go on your lid, you're coming out of it shorter.

Ok so back to harnesses.

After all the concern over the roll over issue, I found myself as the only one without a harness at RFR last weekend. Did anyone ever clarify the issue of rollovers, or did you guys just decide it was worth the trade-off. After being thrown around in my car, hitting my helmet on the side roof, I think I will get them as well. Even with the seatbelt trick, I still found that the shoulder belt would loosen after the first lap. I can only imagine that the control over your car with harnesses is greatly improved since you are not supporting yourself so much with the steering wheel.

Also any input regarding the difference between the Schroth Ralleye 3 or 4? They are roughly the same price but mount differently to the back seat.

I think the Ralleye 3's are the way to go, most use them and I think they are better mounting location then the 4's

The seatback trick works beter if it is actually a seat slide trick. When done properly, it should not come loose. I do this all the time in student cars, and continue to reccomend it.

The Ralleye 3s do work well in our cars, though I am considering getting some sort of teflon or plastic sleeve for my headrest supports as they are wearing on my harness which will need to be replaced shortly.

In the event of a rollover that does not provide enough force to cause the Schroth inner belt to "fail", there could be more of a risk than a 3 point system. Then again, a 3 point system with good seat bolsters is not going to allow you to move much either under those same conditions.

Everyone must make their own choices on safety.

Thanks Dean. I am doing the trick like this:
1. slide seat all the way back.
2. put seat belt on.
3. tug on the shoulder belt and hold
4. slide seat forward.

It sits tight for like one lap then gets looser. It may be that I can't slide the seat far enough forward - long legs.

HMS does have a sale right now. They have the old ralleye 3 passenger side for $40 and full price for the driver side $149. It's in yellow, but I really do not care about the color.

Sounds like you may need to use the up and down lever as well, and/or the seat back.

$149 look like the best price out there right now for a driver's side.

How/where do you guys mount your harnesses?

The Schroth harnesses share the lower mounting point bolts w/ the stock front seat belts, and the rear shares the bolt for the top mounting point for the rear seatbelt (in the C pillar).

Is that the same for both Subaru sedans and coupes?

And even the wagons too!

The Schroth Harnesses are great, probably the best first option for most of us. Actually pretty much all of us without a cage. But if you're cheap and/or poor (and owning an RS is usually proof of at least one of those qualities ;)) you can use the LATCH anchors on the back dash to anchor your harnesses. I got my 5 point (I never bothered installing the crotch strap; no solid anchor points on a factory seat) harness off of racerwholesale.com for $70 shipped a while back. With Y-type shoulder belts like mine has, bolting it to the driver's side LATCH point puts it nearly in line with the center of the seat, and brings the straps back at exactly the angle you want if you do manage to run into something head-on. The only complaints I have are that my harness is latch-and-link instead of cam-lock, and even worse, the lap belts are pull-down instead of pull-up. Makes it harder to snug them down by yourself, and the latch takes longer to put on.

But if you can manage it, the Schroths are probably better overall than the type of harness I'm running.

There aren't on pretty much any racing seat I've seen either, you have to drill through the floorpan and install an anchor bolt/eye under the seat.

The pull-up style we tried in our car was even harder to cinch down than the pull-down style. You could only get it tight to a certain point, and then the adjuster was pretty much locked due to the angle you're pulling it at. It was loose enough that I wouldn't be comfortable driving the car like that.

I don't know about using a mounting point designed for a 40lb babyseat to hold a 180+ lb adult. Those child seat anchors are not bolted straight to the unibody the way the seatbelt bolts are. I would stay away from a regular harness unless you're willing to install a cage or roll-bar, and just go w/ the Schroth.

Seconded....

The anchor is in the unibody structure. It's as strong as the anchor point on the rear OE shoulder belts you guys use for the Schroths.

Rally Innovations is going to make a harness bar for both coupe and sedan 2.5 RS owners. There is a thread about it going on www.rs25.com and here is what the bar will look like- http://www.rallyinnovations.com/prod...rspyphotos.htm

That may or may not work on a coupe. The seat belt anchors on the B pillars are higher than where that bar is set on the adjustables that the new body style has. It might work for our car, but I wouldn't count on it.

Those pictures don't show the actual 2.5 bar. That is for the later WRX and STi. What I was saying is that they are going to make a bar similar to the one in the link for 2.5s.

I thought that fitting was only a 6 or 8mm instead of the 10mm or is it 11mm standard belt bolt. I looked at it pretty hard when I was deciding on an attachment point, and it didn't look like the rear deck was very reinforced in that area.

12mm bolt IIRC. Same as the rear shoulder belt is held down with.

Just verified on my 02 WRX, I can not speak for other models/years.

Normal seatbelt bolts are 7/16", child seat attachment points are 5/16", and yes, they are SAE, not metric. (Probably a regulatory thing)

Also from what I can tell visually, the thread depth of the fixture is only 1/2 to 2/3rds as deep on the child seat attachment points and the material surrounding them does not appear as sturdy as the material around the D pillar rear belt tensioner point most of us have used.

I would not use the child seat attachment points in my car for adult belt attachment points, especially a racing harness.

This is for anyone who hasn't seen this news on nabisco, or c-c, or other sites - STi crash at Streets of Willow - multiple factors (including speculation about 4-pt harnesses) which caused or worsened injuries to both driver and passenger. It could be a case study in track safety .... One of the people at the track recounted:


Here is what happened based upon the info I got that day, since I was running the same run group w/ the white STI. I did not see the accident happen, but came upon it as I came around to the front straight.

The STI was following another car who dropped a fender liner in the middle of the front straight. The driver of the STI swerved left and dropped two wheels into the dirt. He may have tried to correct, and that action/reaction shot him across the track into the infield wall. Both driver and passenger were wearing open face helmets and 4-point harnesses. In addition, the steering wheel/airbag was replaced w/ a Sparco wheel. Passenger side airbag deployed but she ended up submarining under the dash. Driver suffered more serious injuries to the face and possibly a concussion. He knew his name and the fact he was at a race track, but did not know where. In addition, he kept asking what happened. I know the driver was airlifted, but cannot confirm if the passenger was also.

I thought this guy's perspective was interesting:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7&postcount=61