Ok, so my car is fast...
 

but I want to start taking it around turns. I've been thinking about taking it out to an autocross event this summer, but I'm really interested in the reno-fernley track. I was wondering what would be the best direction to go as far as handling. The handling upgrade path on dsmtuners.com is http://www.dsmtuners.com/tuning-guid...suspension.php .

I was just curious what your guys' opinion was on how I should go about doing this. It'll probably be a slow upgrade path for me, but where should I start?

Thanks guys.

What have you done so far?

That list is pretty straightforward. :lol:

Although, is the chassis really so floppy that it would be worth adding strut tower bars before upgrading springs/struts? Or are they just working in order of simplicity and then slapping some brake upgrades on at the end :?:

If it was my 3300+ pound track car, I'd start with wheels and tires, then do all the brake stuff, up to and including a set of Stoptechs. Putting good suspension on a fast car means higher exit speeds, which means higher top speeds, which means more work for the brakes at the next corner. Your car may or may not need big brakes for RFR as it sits (though you DO need better pads and fresh rotors and possibly stainless steel lines) but it definitely will after your suspension improves.

Thanks guys.

I was wondering, would I really need coil-overs compared to a good set of springs?

They made a difference on my RS, I can't imagine a DSM is much stiffer.

In my opinion? No. Coilovers will handle better if you dial them in right, but for just going to the track to have fun and improve your driving skills, springs AND struts are perfectly fine. There is no reason you can't run it stock (well other than brakes on the track probably) you know.

0. Seat time.
1. Tires.
1.5 Seat Time
2. Sway bars.
2.5 Seat time
3. Springs/shocks/coilovers
3.5 Seat Time

#3 is a compromise. If it is a daily driver, slightly stiffer springs may be a good start, followed by good shocks, but if you want to play with height, and make a pure track car, coilovers are the way to go.

Come out on your stock stuff and learn to drive and how the car handles, and then make your decisions. DSMs aren't bad to start.

Way down the list. Strut bars. The possible exception might be a solid unhinged rear bar for the DSM. If there is a 3 point triangulated bar, even better.

Yeah. . . I fully intend to put some work in to my brakes before taking it to track. The stock brakes are fine for daily driving, but I want something I can count on at the track. :eek:

Dean, I like that list :)

It's definitely a good idea to start stock. It's certainly helpful to ask others what mods they would recommend you start with, but it's something else entirely to take your car out and discover - as you're knocking over cones - precisely what you want to start with to make the car handle the way you want.

On the ride home after my first autox, I decided that my first change would be springs/struts. The stock RS suspension (at least these days) sits insanely high and rolls like a bitch. Now, having put a little over 5000 highway miles on the coilovers I chose, I feel comfortable saying that unless you absolutely have to have adjustable ride height, save yourself some back pain and just go with a good spring/shock upgrade. :P

I noticed that DSMtuners had KYB AGX struts and springs from both Eibach and Tein. I think a combination of those would be a good choice when you decide to upgrade - since the AGXs are damping adjustable, the only thing you really lose vs. an affordable set of coilovers is the height adjustment.

Thanks guys. I think I'll start out with a set of springs and maybe some sway bars.

When are you guys going out to the fernley track next? :)

IMO brakes are priority 1 for most street cars when you decide to take it to a real track. OE brakes are usually drastically undersized for sustained performance use. If you can't stop at the end of a straight, you've just written off the car and possibly yourself.

Werd. Especially given the fact that the front straight at RFR is about as fast as it gets in these parts.

I can vouch for the fast part...
My wife and I were driving up the backside of McCarran one Sunday and I see this DSM in my mirror with a larger than normal intercooler and SPOOLN on the license plate. So I figure we'll play a bit and I take off up the hill. Must have a large turbo, took him a little while to spool I guess, but once he did he caught up and passed with ease.
Then we got to the left hander and I caught up and passed him. That thing is fast... testament to the 4G63.

Sounds like brakes are the #1 mod that Ryan needs if he's going to be open tracking the car. :lol:

Also, be ready for overheating if you're running high boost and haven't done a lot of long duration thermal management.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

DOH! Double post.

Thermal Management??


That was you!! Holy shit! You're nuts! I slowed down after I passed you cuz there is NO way I could have taken that turn at that speed! I was braggin to my friends tho how the evo took that turn with ease tho ;) See that peace sign I have you when I passed ;)

Oh, and as far as breaks go - Will I have to replace everything or is there somesort of "race" brake pads I can get to save some money?

The general path is:

1. steel brake lines and better fluid
2. Higher temp pads for the track days
3. Bigger calipers/rotors
4. Brake ducts

Just keep going down the list until the brakes don't suck ;)

I would swap #3 and #4. Brake ducts would help even stock sized brakes tremendously.

And Gary's "thermal managment" is making sure your car can handle the added heat of long sessions. Drag cars don't see the extended time on course that track cars see... you might not have any overheating issues on the street or at the strip, but you get out on course on a hot day and you end up fighting heat all day because the FMIC isn't letting the radiator get enough cool air. If your not getting proper air flow through the engine bay, you can end up heat soaking everything and end up running perpetually hot.

What Scott said (again) especially if DSMs have an easier time creating working brake ducts than STis and WRXs do.

How would I do these things? Brake ducts? Thermal Managment?

If that was an easy question to answer, then race cars would be a cinch to build. I'm still dealing w/ that crap myself: I've got no clue where to locate my brake duct inlets now that I've got FMIC pipes in my fog light buckets.

So, should I try to run some small dryer hoses from the front air damn near the brakes?

What should I do about keeping the engine cool? Whats the best radiator fluid to use? I've been thinking about adding some "wally wet"? to the mixture, but if you guys can recommend anything, that would be cool.

Thanks.

Here's someone's setup.... mine was similar but used the foglight buckets for intakes... I have actually been contemplating the NACA ducts in the bumper just like this Z28.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jonaa/Brakeducts.html

and from Scott's thread:
I've got zero first hand with building brake ducts, so I'll leave the advice on that to others, except to say that pretty much any brake ducts are better than no brake ducts.

As for antifreeze, I don't know if one is really better than another. Pick one that's meant to work with aluminum engines and heads and you'll be fine. Also remember to buy distilled water instead of using tap water. And Summit sells both Water Wetter and Purple Ice. I'm a Redline fan since I used to be able to pick it up directly from the refinery in Benicia. :D

Monitoring EGTs is a good idea, but oil temp and pressure are better indicators of engine health. If oil temps are up much from normal street driving when ont he track you'll want to plumb in some sort of oil cooler. and if you have the right amount of oil in the system and still see any pressure drop, than your engine has problems somewhere. :( As was mentioned by cory in the tap/knocking sound thread, once your OEM oil light comes on you're probably fubared, but an oil pressure gauge might be enough to save you from tearing down your motor if something is going wrong.

That rules! I will totally try that next time I have a car that is underbraked. :lol:

Cart : Horse

Turn down your boost, and come out and drive.

You need to destroy at least one set of pads and rotors before you start worrying about brake ducts.

Did I mention seat time?

The drivers instructors fear most, and most often end up hurting their car or themselves are ones who have made many mods to their cars before they learn to drive.

I am not saying this is you, but reccomending you take things slow. You already have a fast car, use up some street tires, and stock brakes and learn to drive it the way it is. The only mod I would make before your first event is turning down your boost.

They only way to be fast is to be slow first.

^Makes sense... but I'm not turning down my boost! :p I cant anyways... its the lowest it goes right now.

The good new is that without brake ducts, this won't take long :P

<captain stoptechs>You don't need brake ducts on your crappy stock brakes, just brake less</captain stoptechs>

I hear that. Dont worry it's still fun, even though you won't out-brake anyone into a turn.

If I'm Captain Stoptech, I never said exactly that, and I ran on my stock brakes for almost 2 years including many track days before putting on the Stoptechs.

Speak for yourself Brembo Bleeding Boy.

Learning to drive within your cars limits such as tires, suspension, cooling system, and brakes is key to learning to drive.

If you come out on R-Compounds, big brakes, and a slot car suspension, you aren't going to learn nearly as much because the car will save you right up until it snaps loose and then you won't understand why.

To misquote Days of Thunder...

You drive 20 laps your way, then 20 laps my way and we'll se which is faster, and which has more of the car left.

All we do are time trials and open track days... you should *never* be attempting to out brake someone into a corner. :eek: You shouldn't even be near the guy in front of you... if something goes wrong w/ their car, just like on the street, you need a buffer to allow you time to react and avoid and incident.

For example: at the RFR Audi day a while back, with an instructor in my car, we decided to practice some left foot braking through T5-T6. There was an older Jetta (IIRC) that had been tailing me for a few laps so he was pretty used to my line and was starting to follow pretty close. Well, we went into T5 and I grabbed a little more brake w/ the left foot than I intended a little earlier than normal. Of course I let up right away to get back on line, but to the guy in the Jetta it must have looks like a massive early brake check.

He still had the wheel turned exiting T4 and stomped the brakes... and we all know what happens when you turn and brake... I glanced in my mirror and saw that Jetta almost completely sideways with tire smoke billowing off the rear wheels. :lol: After the session the guy came up to me and actually apologized for tailing me so close (class act guy, it was really my fault not his) I told him I was sorry for not letting him by on the straight before trying a new line... I was just concentrating so hard on listening to my instructor and working on my driving, I plain old forgot some common courtesy.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that the guy in front of you might be an idiot like me and decide to run a new and shitty line, which can get you all sorts of out of sorts if you need to check up mid-corner to avoid them.

Well, there are a couple of aspects of thermal management you need to consider. The first has been mentioned, with simple overheating.

Another is heatsoak. Depending on where intake air is routed, the piping can absorb quite a lot of heat. So after your intake air goes through the intercooler, it can be reheated by the piping. You'll feel the car essentially fall on it's face after a few laps if you're getting heatsoak. The intake charge will be too hot, the intake air density will be lower and the compy will pull timing to reduce knock.

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen IC piping go right over the turbo before it turns into the throttlebody. This is a perfect candidate for heat soak performance loss and overheating.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

And a perfect candidate for thermal insulation.

Werd. Anybody have a link to Lowball's in-car from the i-club Buttonwillow day where freddie's car goes blazing by us on the straight... straight off of turn one, and almost came back on and t-boned me? Video proof that if you're not racing, you need spacing. I made that up all by myself! Go me. :lol:

Time trials sound fun :) I'll definatly be wanting a lot of buffer room though.

Are the stock STI brakes / pads / fluid / (other components i don't know about) gonna be just fine for my first few track days ? (i'll probably be slow, but i could also be on the brakes too much ) ?

I would suggest higher temp front pads and fresh fluid. You can swap the pads the night before or at the track in the morning. The rest of the bits will be fine the first few times out.

Hmmm, that's exactly how mine is. I'm hopeful that the big scoop is generating enough air over the turbo area to help a little.

Do you have a heat shield on your turbo? I added the generic Gruppe-S shield on my car... took all of 5 minutes to install and should help a bit. Though bagging the turbo and wrapping the intake would also help quite a bit.

No. I should get one. I wonder if my stock one can be modified ever so slightly?

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=8

If your DP is bare metal, consider wrapping that too. The DP radiates heat into the engine bay to a certain extent and holding the heat in exhaust components actually increases their performance (hotter gas travels faster).

My turbo is bagged, and downpipe is wrapped. They made a huge difference to the temps on that side of the IC. Anyone who is planning on having the turbo off the car for any reason, definately consider taking the extra time to wrap the turbo hotside.

Only if it is before the turbo (headers and uppipe). The exhaust gasses don't help the turbo spool once they are past the turbo :)

True. The closer to the cylinder, the more important keeping heat in is for gas velocity.

Close... you want to keep the heat in the exhaust before the turbo because the hotter the gasses, the more they expand, the faster the turbo spools. After the turbo, you just want to get them the hell out of there... keeping the temps up doesn't doesn't help that.

So, wrapping the DP isn't really going to gain you much, except to help reduce under-hood temps. The headers and UP on the other hand are a different matter.

Also remember, when wrapping stuff, there's pretty much a guarentee that somewhere down the road, condensation in the wrapping will eventually lead to rust destroying the wrapped exhaust. Even if you go the full 9 yards and use all the different sprays and sealants etc to make the wrapping "waterproof", you've still got a pretty good chance that the wrapping will ruin the exhaust in 5 or 6 years instead of 2 or 3. Plus, if you're going that route, it's probably cheaper and less work just to get everything jet coated.

Edit: Mike beat me to it!

Yah, I'm happy with my ceramic coated UP. I don't know how much heat the wrapping on my headers really is holding in considering how hard they are to wrap well. I did use the spray sealent stuff. I would prefer to get some Port and Polished headers with a good ceramic coating, but you know, the whole money thing. :( I guess I'll just wait till they rust through from the wrap. :lol:

I've been thinking about spray-painting my Upper IC pipes with some black, high temp spray (like for bbqs or wheels) in an attempt to block off some of the heat. How would that work out?



You just kind of ate your own words, Scott. You want to get the exhaust out as fast as possible, right? The hotter the gas is, the faster it'll move. Thus, you'll gain a little from wrapping your dp.

Also, what about high-temp spraying the DP?

I've never heard of using paint to insulate piping. I bet it has negligible benefit.

And I do agree that keeping heat in the DP is not anywhere near as important as holding it in pre-turbo for turbo spool. I really don't know how beneficial the coating on my DP is considering I still have the 3rd cat right after it, but it is worth it regardless just to keep the underhood temps low and keep it from radiating heat to the TMIC.

Hot gasses do not "move faster", there is a difference between pressure and flow. Gasses that come off the motor are expanding due to their heat. If you let the gas cool, it doesn't expand as fast... i.e. you're losing some of the kenetic and thermal energy that will spin the turbo. Once the gas leaves the turbo, you don't want it to expand, because (just like a balloon) they expand in all directions. Expanded gasses after the turbo push backwards against the turbine blade, and slow them down. Ideally, you'd want hot expanding gas before the turbo and cool contracting gas after the turbo to help scavenge the gasses out of the turbo and reduce back-pressure.

Hi temp paint on the IC pipes will have virtually no effect. Get some thermal wrap from summit, it's relatively cheap, works well, and looks like ass under the hood (helps reduce the chances people will call you a ricer :lol: ). This is the stuff: http://store.summitracing.com/defaul...=egnsearch.asp

A really cool theoretical discussion on the topic of holding heat in post turbo can be found starting on page 2 of a thread sombody started on heat wrap. Here's a link: http://www.wrxfanatics.com/index.php...ot%20gas&st=15

You know it's a good discussion when people start quoting Corky Bell. :)

One thing Adrian (Thunderbolt) brings up is convection currents that can slow velocity if heat difuses too quickly through the pipe.

Wrapping makes it last 5 or 6 years instead of 2 or 3?? Where do I sign!! :P