Yet Another Brake Pad Thread.
 

OK, in the vane of the Brake Fluid thread, I am creating this to find the best bang for the buck brake pads. This was prompted by the high prices for R4 pads for the 04 Brembo calipers.

Based on this, Axis ultimates probably are the answer for street/autocross, and I think I'm going to have to try the EBC Yellows. I liked the greens, and reds when I used them, so I have to give them a try I think.

I used Ferrodo DS3000s at the track and they were awesome. 258 a set from raceshopper.com. Next time I might try the ferrodo DS3000+, slightly higher coefficient of friction

Would EBC greenstuff be a decent choice for my daily-driven/aurocrossed RS? Or would I be better off saving some money with Axxis Ultimate?

Personally I'd recommend Hawk HPS if you're only going to run one pad, or Axxis Deluxe Plus for the street if you're willing to switch out. Talk to Khail if you want Hawk pads.

I really like the greens for autocross. They have great initial bite. The Ultimates are also good. The HP+ are probably cloes to those, and teh HPS a little less agressive. Bang for your buck, the Ultimates can't be beat.

Greens have an old reputation for ruining rotors, even on the street. I'm not sure if EBC has properly addressed the problem.

As long as EBC sticks to motorcycles where they kick total ass, I wont get into selling muffler bearings.

Im not hater..really.


But if they turn your wheels black, why are they called green? Dont we all want green wheels at the end of a good drive?

If BF Goodrich cold package colored brake pads with their scorcher tires..they'd be onto something..

You lost me. Has EBC addressed the excessive rotor wear issue with the greens, or not?

I don't think anyone's suggesting the actual color of the pad is important.

I dont believe they have..and the rest..was sleep deprived humor.

The Hawk HPS definitely look like they're worth considering.

I noticed at the last autox event that my brakes just don't provide enough friction to take advantage of the traction my tires have - I was standing on the pedal and only felt the ABS engage when I was on the more gravelly portions of the course. I can cope with the sponginess and lack of friction with the stock brakes, but I'd like to trim down my braking distance.

I want to replace my brake lines as well sometime soon. :P

Can't, that's purely a function of tires and driving surface provided you have enough brake friction to lock up the tires, which you do. What better pads will do for you is reduce the amount of force you have to put on the pedal to achieve lockup, and therefore the amount of time you have to spend on the brakes to get there. It also reduces the amount of time it takes to go from throttle -> threshold braking -> throttle.

?

"I was standing on the pedal and only felt the ABS engage when I was on the more gravelly portions of the course."

This tells me he could use more friction on the non-sucky surfaces. If he said he was lockin up on dry, smooth, clean surface, that would be different.

But..HPS is a close-to-stock replcaement for most cars. Some cars its a better pad, most cars its about par, and for properly designed sports car..its a worse pad.

I would suggest the R4-S, and if you wanna tune your braking system, you can mix in R-41, which carry HUGE friction levels cold, but do not use them where you expect higher than 600d temps. Street (not street racing)and autox is ok up front, and just about any non pure-roadrace use in the rear is perfect. But again, thats goin out there and tuning your braking system for what you use it for.

Agreed. With those symptoms a more aggressive pad should trim down braking distance.

anyone ever try project mu pads?

fixed.

I ran greens and reds in the stock calipers, and was quite happy with them, and did not have any more "eating" rotors than with any other pad. I think I still have a set in the rear of the WRX that just won't die. EBC makes good stuff at reasonable prices IMHO.

I'm not sure you can convince me that ground up ceramic, and base metals, and some fancy epoxy on a metal plate is worth $200+ a set.

I will not descend into commenting on naming them after colors other than to say that they are not the only major pad manufacturer that does, and how many different letters can you add after R4 before it gets confusing?

I think MikeK ran reds at some point as well in his WRX.

Nothing will make up for an undersized caliper, and aggressive driving at the track. We all appear to like the ultimates, but Scott has proven they can't handle the heat at the track. :)

And I will continue to say this... ROTORS ARE A WEAR ITEM! Expect to replace, resurface, etc. them. This is amplified 100 fold by tracking them. At high temperatures, imperfections in ANY pad, or rotor can cause lines, groves, etc. to appear. they may or may not clear up with post track street driving/pad changes.

People are willing to pay $200+ for a set of pads, but bitch about rotor wear??? I got a full set of stock WRX rotors delivered for under $100.

Dean, rotor *wear* is expected. Premature *cracking* is not. Remember that set of rotors that came off your car w/ cracks all over the place? Remember the EBC greens you were running that caused those cracks? Remember me telling you "I told you so"? :P

Granted the Greens did a terrific job of stopping the car. But they put the hurt on the rotors to the tune of 1 set of rotors per set of pads. Maybe not a big deal on stock WRX rotors, since they're cheap, but running those on my StopTechs would turn those $100 pads into $400 pads. Meanwhile on my Ultimates/R4 shedule, I've gone through 2+ sets of Ultimates and 3+ sets of R4's and I'm just now thinking about replacing the friction rings.

At the SECCS track day in 04, I used about 50% of them ... although I wasn't actually going very fast back then

If you have a big enough shoe horn you might just get those onto your STi

Cracking is about heat, not wear. Any pad/rotor/load combination that could generate the kind of heat required would cause cracking. My rotors cracked due to an overtaxed brake system, not a pad compound.

The greens and reds have been great pads every time I have used them.

I don't know why you say one set of rotors per pad? I have only gone through 1 set of WRX rotors, and one set of Stoptechs, both of which were previously used, and at least 3 sets of WRX pads, and many sets of Stoptechs.

The "used" stock rotors you had were 2mm under minimum Scott, so they were long past dead, cracks or not, you just didn't know it, and I'm not sure how many other sets you went through. So don't throw stones about rotor wear.

ROTORS ARE A WEAR ITEM. If you want to stop a 3000lb car repeatedly from speed in a short distance, you will use up rotors, period, no matter what pads you use.

Yeah, but EBC still sponsors subiegal, and Hawk sponsors the SCCA. That helps the decision process. :p

That's fine and dandy. But you can't deny that these pads have a public reputation for being hard on rotors. I know you like to believe that you know more than everyone to the point that even when 1000 people agree on something you can still think they're all wrong, but let's face it, the EBC's probably didn't get their reputation because all these people all tried EBC's and just happened to ruin their rotors quickly due to execessive driving while driving more carefully on every other pad they've tried.

Now, I heard not too long ago that EBC had attempted to address the issue, but I never heard about the results.

The complaints (back in 2002 or so when I was last shopping for pads) was that one set of EBC pads "ruined" the rotors. By my math, that's 1 set of rotors per set of pads.

Who's throwing stones? My *used* rotors were 2mm under min... but they weren't cracked. The only rotors that I "ruined" as opposed to "used up" were the ones that came off my car after the RFR track day where I severely overheated them. I let things get so hot that the pads stopped wearing (remember they came off the car with more than half their thickness left), and instead the rotors began wearing. And even then, they weren't as bad as the spiderwebs you had on your rotors... they were just severly grooved.

You tout yourself as some master of racecraft that can stop on a dime with a fairy's foot of brake pressure... and I'm actually inclined to agree that you *are* very gentle on brakes, even when using them hard. So I've gotta ask again, isn't it likely that those EBC's did excessive damage to your rotors that a less-harsh pad perhaps wouldn't have?

Thanks for repeating what nobody is arguing. Using rotors *is* expected. Having them trashed prematurely is not.

I did not start this thread to debate a four+ year old compound that has changed at least twice since then and it's effects. That compound is ancient history, lets drop it.

I stand by the EBC products I have listed, and unless you have recent personal experience with them, I would appreciate it if you left ancient heresay out of this.

And as I said, rotors crack due to heat. At least one of mine was still above minimum thickness, there just wasn't enough depth left to turn them.

Cracked <> ruined. Most of the time, cracks are on the surface only, and do not penetrate the rotor, and can be turned, or ground away.

Surface cracks are a common brake rotor phenomenon. IMHO a set of R4s, etc. would have done the same thing under those conditions.

Grooved or not, under minimum thickness = ruined. Your rotors were 2mm under minimum, so what pads were you using? Those are what I would refer to as rotor eaters.

Well, that's all fine and good, I've been very happy with the wear and performance I've got out of the Ferodo 2500's. I will be going to the 3000+ soon though.

One thing we forgot to ask....What would George Foreman say?
http://www.meineke.ca/images/aapexShow/ThumbsUp.jpg
Meineke Bitches.

Holy mother of god.

From my 1st post in this thread:

Then a bit later:

Then the answer from the guy who's business it is to know:

If you've got contrary information, by all means let us have it. I'd be happy to drop the issue if it was in fact a non-issue.

My argument is not hearsay, I'm stating that the EBC's have a *reputation* for eating rotors, plus the rotors I saw that came off your EBC shod car were worse than any of the rotors that have come off mine.

But, hearsay or not, if the problem hasn't been addressed, the pads your recommending have a well known reputation for sucking. Once again, just because you don't think you have problems doesn't invalidate the argument that many others have had issues, it's only contrary data. As I see it the count is 1 for and at least 20 against.

Personally I don't have experience with the EBC's because I won't use a product that has so many people telling me to stay clear of it. Your claims to the contrary aren't enough to change my mind (especially since I still think the damage to your old rotors was exaserbated by the greens). What I need is evidence that EBC has fixed the problem and that many people are having success with the pads. And even then, I'm plenty happy w/ the Ultimates and R4's, so I probably still won't change my pads of choice.

A rotor that's damaged to the point where it may have a catastrophic failure at any moment is a "ruined" rotor. Cracks in the rotor indicate metal fatigue, which means the rotors have exceeded their design limits and could fail. If you have the material to turn the rotors clean, you might be okay, but if we're talking about the cracks I remember seeing on your rotors a while back, I double they'd be turnable even on fresh rotors.

However, being 2mm under minimum is probably not in danger of failure if the rotor is still smooth, it's just used up. Granted the rotor won't be as good a heat sink, and granted it should be replaced ASAP, but it's not at risk for catastrophic failure IMO. Talk to me about a rotor 5 or 6 mm under minimum and you'll get a different opinion.

So anyway, I really don't have that much at stake in this thread. Like I said, I'm happy w/ my pads. But there seem to be a truckload of people on this board recently that don't like to do their own research and instead ask people like you and me "what should I do" and take our suggestions as gospel. If you're going to recommend something, please represent it fairly. You and I both know about the EBC's reputation... for the sake of those that haven't been around for the last 5 years, at least mention it so I don't feel obligated to get into these rediculous arguments. A simple "EBC was known to be harsh on rotors, but I haven't seen that personally, perhaps you should do some research" in your recommendation would suffice instead of going off the deepend with me trying to somehow prove that the EBC's don't have a bad reputation.

Even if the ebc's have a reputation of wearing rotors, I gotta think its a matter of ymmv.

I ran at least 4 audi track events on the same set of EBC greens (having also used the dot brake fluid) with no issues. It's true that later I had warped rotors, but that was after having 'coasted down spooner summit with my foot on the brake' - according to Subaru's service department.

Maybe - wagons > sedans. ;)

Forget EBC, crucial exhausts are the big thing this year

Rotor cracks just depend on the particulars. If it has lots of little surface cracks, that's from heat cycling & aggressive pads and is fairly normal. Something to keep an eye on, but perfectly useable. Cracks that are longer or deeper than the typical surface stuff mean it's now an expensive paperweight. Kinda one of those "I'll know it when I see it" deals, like porn. :)

Now I get it! Thanks for relating rotor wear to something I can understand!:lol:

No problem, I figured everyone on this board would understand those terms. :lol:

I'm going to ceramic-coat my wheels and tires, should be good for like 50hp at the wheels :p

*ducks*

Back to brakes.

You guys suck.

Just busting your balls :p
My car makes 103whp, it's not like I'm talking shit ;)

Is my sig too big? ;)

Which pad would you choose for a dedicated winter pad ? no autocrossing, no track days, no driving over 75 mph. Just a good pad that works great when its very cold out (-10 C) . I'll take brake dust , and a lack of high temp use as trade offs, or what ever the trade offs might be. Most of the roads going to the ski resorts have speed limits of 55 mph, and lot of tourists who may and will stop with no warning for just about anything.

Cobb Street ?
Pagid RS Sport Blue ? Seems expensive but the RS Sport blue specifically mentions that it has high friction under colder tempatures.

Alex, I know you live in Tahoe, but I would still run the same pad in the winter as you run at AutoX. Track pads actually aren't very good for AutoX since they don't work too well when cold.

The R4-S's may not be best since, on 9*F mornings this winter, they would be a little slippery on the first stop. No biggie as long as you are ready for it though.

Probably no pad is going to bite on the first revolution or two if there is any humidity because of condensation, frost, etc.

This is really a tough question. I would be tempted to post something in the the Northeast region portion of nasioc, or I-club. Is there a Canada section?

I'd suggest the EBC Greens, but don't want to be struck down... :)

Maybe Scott, or Kevin can ask their Stoptech sources.

Did you have any problems with the OEM pads this winter Alex?

I love Axxis Deluxe Plus for regular driving, but I emailed to see if they are any better in the cold than our typical autocross pads.

I'll consider staying with the stock pads , or something like the Greens during winter, as the earlist i'll worry about winter pads will be november.

I'm just thinking that say in 30,000 miles of driving I will go through more then 1 set of pads. Considering autocrossing, + daily driving in the mountains,so that means I have to buy more then 1 set. Let's say 3 sets of brake pads. I may spend exactly the same over time (given enough time owning my car). either buying 3 sets of a good all around pad, OR i could buy 2 sets of summer use pads, and 1 set of winter street only pads.

Could be i'll sell my car before then, or the costs of pads won't add up as i'm guessing they might. But that's my silly little plan (currently).

Well, you're pretty much limited to anecdotal reviews on the forums for cold friction. Stoptech says that the manufacturers don't provide that info, and in fact provide as little as possible of any kind. So I'd look for reviews by Sti owners of individual pads and see if others agree. In the meantime, I'd plan on swapping pads for track, autocross, and street. It'll save you money in the long run anyway.

Remember that when swapping pads, you have to bed them in properly to get a transfer layer of the new pad material on the rotor. That means you'll actually be putting quite a bit more wear on the rotor and pads every time you swap than if you just pick a pad and go with it.

Sounds like i need to rethink my pad plans.

I'll anecodtal you!

Wait, what?

Until you beocme hard core track whore, don't sweat it. The stockers should get you through your first School as long as they are >50% and you bleed/flush before you go.

As long as you can bear some noise, we should be able to find a winter/street/autocross pad, then a track pad if you get into it. When that happens, you might end up with a track/autocross/street, and a street/winter. I haven't pulled the Stoptech Club specs (Basically porterfield R4 pads) out since I put them in. They are noisy, and suck when cold, but I know that and am willing to live with it. I proably wouldn't if it was my daily driver.

If you want to avoid rebedding, just have 2 sets of rotors, and 2 sets of pads... only probably takes 5 or so minutes per corner to do both instead of just pads.

Oh, and you are unlikely to need more than one type of rear pads. A set of decent street pads (R4-S, HP+, Greens, etc.) should work for all conditions until you get wicked fast at the track...

My anecdotal $.02-

For street, and at the risk of repeating myself, I love the Axxis Deluxe Plus. Quiet, clean, and don't feel mushy. They have decent cold friction too, or at least, I don't remember wishing I had better cold pads the winter before last. That was on my RS, which had a similar pad area/curb weight ratio to an STi. I have a set in the garage for the Miata that will go in on monday, although I may actually throw the fronts in on saturday afternoon to shift some bias to the rear. The Miata has extremely front biased brakes for some reason.

For track and autocross, I used a single pad because my RS and now the Miata don't reach high speeds. The best I used out of 3 pads were the Stoptech Club Spec. Dusty, but not excessively noisy, and had good cold bite (in the spring/summer/fall) for autocross. I could not come close to fading them, even at RFR and Buttonwillow. However, Scott had them during the winter in his Stoptechs, and they sucked ass when it was cold outside, so they would be mid-summer/auto-x/track only for you.
I also did track days on the OE Subaru 4 pot pads, and they were actually a *very* good all-around pad. Minor dust, no noise, and held up at the track- but I only drove them once or twice at speed and that was at Thunder Hill, which isn't very hard on brakes. The other pad I used for competition was the Ultimate, and I actually didn't really care for it. The initial bite at autocross ws less than the Club Spec pads, and the dust drove me crazy.

Dean, good call on second set of rotors for track pads. I might have to grab a set myself.

http://www.wrxfanatics.com/index.php...5&#entry636373

Any trufe to such a statement?

That's quite a claim, given that Carbotech doesn't manufacture pads- they reshape pucks from someone else.

While I have been unable to find anything but heresay, it is my understanding that Carbotech uses Hawk materials in their pads. I think HPS= Bocat, HP+ = Panther, etc... Buy whichever is cheaper if you want tat compound.

As far as compatibility, I wouldn't count on it.

I'm doubtful too. Valhakar is the only one I've ever seen saying that. I checked Carbotech's FAQ section and didn't see anything about it.