Brake recommendations
 

My 2005 STi has worn out its brakes. :(

So, after some research on the web, I have found that Ferodo has some good brake sets, I.E. the DS2500 series. However, I am having a hard time finding a dealer around here.

I checked out Summit Racing and they only carry the Front brake pads from EBC. The ones I was looking at are the EBC DP31210C for $119.95, (redstuff pads).

Anyone have any better suggestions?

I like EBC, and strongly reccomend them. You may not like the reds in the winter though. Pretty good autocross and track pad.

I just got a set of yellows for the STI.

Porterfield R4, or R4s.

Hawk HP+ is a good street/autocross pad, but not great for the track other than maybe a first event.

<dean>just brake less, bitch!</dean>

I have used ferodo 2500s and 3000s up front in my STi. The 2500s last a long time but are a bit average in feel. The 3000s are a little wooden the first time you use them in the morning, but after one or two applications are amazing. They don't last very long at all though :( These are track only pads according to ferodo, but I love the feel so much I am using them on the street. At autoX, with the 2500s I had to really stand on the pedal to get the abs to kick in. With the 3000s I have to be gentle on the pedal or the abs will kick in at every corner. I love these pads! If only they lasted longer than 2 months :( I definately wouldn't leave these pads in during winter!

I have had porterfield R4 pads, they felt about the same as the ferodo 3000s, except they took longer to warm up, but also lasted a lot longer. I definately wouldn't leave these pads in during winter!

EBC pads are probably the best bang for the buck. I used the reds on my WRX at a track event and they were great. I drove dean's WRX with the greens at AutoX 2 years ago and they bite really well.

Just buy the pads online, there are dozens of places that carry everything you need cheaper than summit. This is the last place I bought pads: http://raceshopper.com/

I have only tried stock and R4-S's so I don't have much comparison to base my opinion on, but I do like the R4-S's. They are a little wooden on below freezing mornings, but totally usable. They faded at my one and only track day at RFR a little, but that's no surprise. What I do like is that the dust wipes off the wheels easily even after sitting on them for months, they seem to be lasting a long time and my rotors look pretty good still. They have recently started squeeking a little, but it's not bad and spraying them out with water seems to have helped. They're perfect for daily driver/autoX IMO.

1) Don't restrict yourself to what's in stock locally. Shipping is minimal enough on pads.

2) Splurge on pads. After tires, they are the next most important component of the car. Worry less about "value for dollar" and more about what you can afford to actually spend. Buy the best stuff you can allow yoursef to spend for.

If you're planning to run one single pad year-round, you're gonna be unhappy on the track or scared shitless in the winter, no way around it. Brembo pads are just too big. I would recommend Mike's favorites, the DS3000s for track and autocross, and something like Axxis Deluxe Plus or maybe Hawk HPS or whatver for in between. I also really like the Stoptech Club Spec pad for competition duty, but you should ask Scott about those since the ones he tried on his car were much more similar to your application than mine was.

Do you guys recommend replacing the hardware when replacing pads?

I don't think it's necessary. As long as you didn't break anything. It is just for noise suppression anyway.

I use the StopTech ClubSpec pads for the track. Rumor is, they're rebranded Porterfield R4s. (Shhhh!) I'm *very* happy w/ them at the track, but they are simply too harsh for the street (they do a pretty good job of polishing your rotors clean if you use them cold for a while), and they don't have enough bite for autocross (I find they're just starting to feel right as you're finishing up a run).

I use Axxis Ultimates for street/autocross. They're messy as hell though, which sorta sucks for daily driven cars. But they've got good cold bite, and seem to work pretty well at autocross. However, don't take 'em to the track... they will overheat and turn into bricks.

If you can't stand the corrosive dust from the Ultimates, I'd agree w/ Kevin's recommendation of the Axxis Metal Masters. That's what I use on the SVX, and they're great street pads. Not sure about autocrossing 'em though.

Also, I hear good things about the R4-S's on the street/autocross... and I imagine they're pretty compatible with the R4's if you're going to be swapping pads a lot between track and street. But I haven't used the R4-S's myself, so I've got no 1st hand advice on 'em.

Actually, I recommended Deluxe Plus. ;) I've never used Metal Masters, but as I understand it, Metal Masters are in between Deluxe+ and Ultimates in terms of noise and friction, but closer to the Deluxe+ for dust. Deluxe Plus are dustless and not noisy (although after autocrossing on the mtwice, mine are making some noise in the Miata) wear slow, and they are CHEAP.

Either way... for the record, I don't remember if I have the Metal Masters or Deluxe's on my SVX. :lol: All I know is they're not Ultimates, and they barely dust, and the dust doesn't stain the wheels (it just washes off at the touchless car wash even!).

Werd, Axxis street pads FTW.

I use Cobalt GT-Sport pads and I dig 'em.

Coefficient of Friction: 0.48mu
Temperature Range: 75-950F+

Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

Just and FYI, I went to the dealership here in Lake Tahoe and asked how much the OEM brake pads cost. The answer was, $320 for the front, and $208 for the rear.

I think I will definetly be buying aftermarket pads. I found that the Axxis Ultimates are $141 after shipping, and thats both front and rear pads. Not sure if I am getting those ones yet, as I don't clean my car very often and it would seam the brake dust is gonna get pretty bad.

Just do like I did- Paint your wheels black so the dust doesn't show. Problem solved!

You will need to paint the side of your car black too

I'm sure we could all help with that.

I'm shocked (and yet, not) to see the dealer price on the OEM pads for STi. However, a quick trip to the subarugenuineparts.com OEM parts catalog shows that the fronts can be had for $220 and the rears for $169. You know, if you want OEM that badly. :P

Comparatively, a full set of pads (front and rear) for my car would cost a total of $125. I wonder if I'm really getting 32% the performance for 32% the price. :|

might you consider mail order? i ordered a set of front pads from subedude.com a few weeks ago and got it the next day (order placed after 4:00 pm and recieved by lunch the next day). tahoe is a little close than g-ville, but it's suprising how fast i got the parts for regular shiping charges. and i dunno if they have the parts your looking for, but it's worth a try.

Yes, mail/Interweb order! Whatever you decide on, I would strongly reccomend searching on Nasioc, iwsti, and i-club for the best deal. Brake parts have a huge markup, and many places are willing to cut their profits to the bone on these items. And often their postings are more up do date, and more complete than their web sites.

I think I saw front and rear Ultimates the other day as low as $129 for both sets.

Pro Parts USA has them on ebay for $130 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Axxis...spagenameZWDVW

These guys are pretty good. I have bought stuff from them before. You might want to call them up and ask what there best deal is without ebay. It might be even better. (Their web site is tragically out of date, and incomplete compared to what they actually carry/sell.)

Contact info in this thread in the vendor review section.

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4387

Thats a good link, 112 for both sets

Do they seriously dust up the car that bad?

On track certainly... but if you wash your car every week or two like most people, you won't really notice. Since MikeK washes his car every time the millenium digit on the calender increments, he has to chisle off the brake dust coating.

I am right there running for a tie with first place when it comes to wahsing my car.

Do most people really wash their cars that often? I've been meaning to get it done recently, but I haven't actually washed my car since last October. Hohl Subaru gave it a quick wash last time I took it in for an oil change, though.

That's what happens to everyone with white and silver cars. :p The nice thing about having a dark colored car is that washing it is actually rewarding, because when you go all out and do a good wash and clay bar and multi-stage glaze and wax and all that, it actually looks good. With white or silver cars they are "clean" or "I think it's clean" or "hmm, I should wash my car just for the weight savings."

Hey, my car builds dust and swirls just like everyone else.





. . . you just have to look at it at the right angle from about six inches away to really see them. :lol:

well stated! i tried to polish all the swirl marks out of my car last weekend and gave up after i finished the dented hood. and still ended up spending 6 hours waxing. now that it's been a few days there's pollen and pitch all over it so i can't even dust it off.

yup yup

Check your PMs Brian.

replied

I park outside in tahoe, with some work being down in the meadow to kick up extra dust. I only wash my car when i see some cheerleader car wash going on.

that and the Holh oil change + car wash for $22. (if you bring in your oil, and the filter is 13 anyways) what a bargain !

Did you make a decision yet?


I have axxis ultimates and love them. The brake dust isn't as bad as everyone says. The dirt on the rest of my car keeps up with my wheels so I end up washing regularly anyway..

Yup, Axxis Ultimates front and rear.

Cool. What are your impressions so far?

no impressions yet, have to order them, then I'll install them.

As I'm seeking new pads for my 04 STi I thought I would post this reply from a guy that I contacted from the site. He seems knowledgeable.

See below.
*****


Heya..ok..pretty much Stoptech has a pretty wide line of option, but they
have a few things that just are not considered to be good pads anymore
(Axxis and Ferrodo)..and they have most of the world of good race pads
(PFC and Hawk), but are missing some new stuff on the retail market thats
been private labeled to NASCAR Busch and Nextel series for a # of
years...Raybestos.


Here is a list of relative strengths and weaknesses that I can answer to,
directly.

Hawk:
HPS, not as good as your stock pad for track use...but better than MOST
over the counter no-brand pads, and better than most non performance
minded OEM pads.

HP+, better than most any stock pad, but VERY dusty, and very agressive
HP+on
rotors. And for $350ish for a pair of front rotors for an STi, its a
terrible choice..and still not a good pure race pad, and its an iffy
street pad just because its so horrible on rotors.

HT10, a pretty darn good race only pad..no street use. Dusts enough to
want to clean it often, but -never ever- get it wet..clean it. HT10 dust
will damage your wheels, it'll stick to it and corrode to em. These will
cost a set of rotors per set of pads.

HT14, a more aggressive pad than the HT10, but too grabby most people
find...and worse on dust and rotor wear. But you shouldnt judge dust
levels on race pads, its what they all do when used hard.

PFC:

PFC01 is a better pad than HT10 by this much: <--> (two fingers close
together) in my personal expereience. Same rotor wear, and dust
characteristics as the HT10..dont let it stay long or get wet. Still eats
rotors.

Ferrodo:
I stopped selling all Ferrodo products about 2yrs ago, they changed
something in their pads..not sure what, but theyre not the old Ferrodo
that used to have a stellar name.

Pagid:

Pagid has some OK stuff in the full race Black, Yellow, and Grey pads, but
for the cost you can do better. Other than some stalwart old school
Porsche racers, I get no requests for this more than once or twice a year.
There is simply better to be had.

Axxis:
Friends dont let friends use Axxis. Are you my friend? :) Seriously, they
make a pad that feels nice and grippy at street temps, but they cannot
carry into track temps and retain good friction.

I dont trust any brake
manufacturer that gets defensive on the phone when you ask for
friction:temperaure charts. Axxis, EBC, and Carbotech are some of those
manufacturers. I try hard to be objective, but I take my cues by what I
see my customers, class members, and _competitors_ use on the racetracks.
Those are not seen there.



Here are two manufacturers not listed by Stoptech.

Porterfield:
PF has a few options for you, both for street+track use, or track use
only.

R-4S: This is their street pad that is capable of limited track use. In
an STi you have to give up some speed and agression to use this pad..its a
"hack" to put it best. You want a GOOD street pad that can take track
temps..the problem is the street manners of the pad means that the pad
shouldnt be hard on rotors. The R-4S compound is not. You MAY see up to
3 sets of pads on your car before you need to replace the rotors, and
generally you dont need to resurface between pads, the R4S pads dont
groove heavilly, you can add new pads and they'll bed in perfectly. Your
22k mile old stock pads probly have a good ridge of wear at the edge of
the rotors already. Once you turn those, you wont have much rotor left
before having to throw them away. So back on topic..to retain the
characteristics of a savvy street pad, the friction levels at high
temperatures just are not there. This compound is good to about 900d.
Thats some aggressive driving for sure, but not balls-out either.
And..the harder you are on them, the more they will dust, and the faster
they will consume themselves either. Its the nature of any performance
pads to wear faster as youdrive them closer to the edge of their
limitations. These are great front and rear...dont just do fronts, you'll
overwork them. You have to bring up the rear friction levels to match.

R-41: This is a cool new compound. It offers race frictions at street
temps. The chart in the aforementioned datasheets shows a wide temp
range, but the pad material starts to feel soft over about 600d, so its an
_ideal_ rear brake pad when you need more work out of the rears. If you
wanted a sweeet street only setup, Id go R-4S up front, and R-41 in the
rear. This should work OK on the track as well, Id like some feedback on
it if you do. Rally racers tend to like it because they can fine tune
their rear brake bias easier on it.

Race only options..

R-4: The original Porterfield race only pad. Pretty darn good, long
life, dust isnt severe, and rotor wear is still VERY friendly.

R-11: This is the new stuff this year. It has a killer friction and
temperature range, dusting isnt horrible, and the rotor wear is no worse
than the R-4. If you get into bombing speeds, I would also use this in
the rear. I would put these up against the HT10, and PFC01 race only pads
in a heartbeat, and I think this one's better.

Raybestos:

Raybestos has three options that are new to the public market. ST41,
ST42, and ST43. The only two that matter are ST41 and ST43 really. ST42
is good for low temp race use, and there are better options..but back to
the gooood stuff.

ST-41: You will not find a higher friction, higher energy, rotor FRIENDLY
pad to compare to this. These things are just..brutally efficient at
braking on the track. Dust is somewhat _low_, rotor wear is unusually
_low_, and they can take so much heat..that I am selling these in
situations where racers are bending the backing plates of other pads.
However, its only suggested to use these on the fronts of cars that have
either ABS, or very large race rubber with some downforce. Theyre wildly
awesome pads.

ST-43: If you dont have ABS, or need killer rear pads, these are the
perfect match to ST-41's in the front. They operate a tad colder for the
rear, and match the ST41 friction levels, they just do it more calmly and
slowly.



So..if you wanted a pad purchase that you can street & track knowing that
track use is going to compromise your top speeds (you'll have to drive
DOWN to meet the pad to keep it from wearing out too fast..in other words,
work on technique), I would use Porterfield R-4S in front and R-11 in the
rear. You could save a few bucks and use R-4S in the rear as well and
give up a tad more braking power.

If you wanted to swap street pads for brake pads..and I think that if you
try a hybrid street & track pad just once, you'll find it cheaper to swap,
I would use R-4S and R-11 for the street, and Raybestos ST41 and ST43 for
the track. If you swap tires, swappin pads only takes a few minutes to do
these as well once you have done it once.

I need to confirm the price of the Raybestos pads for the store, I had a
killer sale price at the Rim Of The World pro rally last weekend, so what
you see online SHOULD be correct, but if you can afford me the luxury to
double check, I would appreciate it.

http://www.speedtoys.com


I also have the Motul RBF600 fluid, and the Motul 5.1...the differences..

RBF: For severe use, can take very high temps. However, it -needs- to
move thru your system steadily. After every track weekend, flush out a
few ounces of fluid, about two dixie cups per corner..period. Its very
hygroscopic, and the heat abused fluid will float UP the system to the
master cylinder. :)

5.1: For long term street use. You dont need to flush like the RBF
requires you too. But cant take severe temps..also much cheaper.

And..FWIW, I could make SS lines for your car cheaper than the $165ish
that Stoptech wants, I just need to know length, and the fitting sizes,
should be exactly..or about..10x1mm threads on one or each end, and
possibly a banjo fitting on the other.


You race it..we brake it..

While I can't say for sure, that may well be Geoff from Speedtoys. Geoff is also on this board occasionally and resells a couple of manufacturers pads. He is very knowledgeable, but may tend to favor what he sells a little IMHO.

Don't have time to go through his post in detail, but right now, it appears the best back for your buck STI pads are the EBC compound of your choice. Matt just beat the heck out of a set of yellows at RFR and apparently likes them. I have had good results with both the greens, and reds in the past.

Axxis makes good cheep stuff for the street, and autocross, but it won't hold up on the track. Unless I am mistaken, Axxis = Bendix - AU. Dismissing them is like dismissing Ford, or GM. You may not like what they make, but they are none the less a force to be reckoned with.

What do you want the pads for? What type(s) of usage? That will narrow the field substantially.

Check out earlier in this thread as well as these two others for more info. Let us know how else we can help.

Brake Fluid:
http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2318

STI Brake Pads:
http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4615

I like my axxis pads :(

I like mine, have a better "feel" then the warn out stock pads. LOL

Is the dude on this forum right or wrong? He has brakes that are larger then stock and he thinks he can run in SP. I don't think I'm confussed as this guy and believe increasing the rotar size on my wagon would put me in SM.

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/for...?TID=4205&PN=1

It looks like if you are prepped to STX rules, you can run in the appropiate ESP class, but you can't mix and match between the rules solely to get bigger rotors. As in, if you have a different mod that is allowed in SP, but not STX AND have bigger rotors, then you have to go to Street Mod.

Well, I think I could run in STX. So, if I increased the size on my rotors or calipers for STX, I could then run in ESP with that set up. I really don't know why I'm in ESP and not STX but for the compeditors. I guess it's back to the small print on the rule book on line. I really need a copy for next year.

Do you have a reflash? Boost mods are not legal in STX, but brakes are. So you can run the big brakes in ESP if you're sticking to the STX rules and not running a boost map.

We (meaning me and Dean) went through this one a while back. Basically, if you have an ST-legal car, you can slap DOT r-compounds on it (or not) and go run in Street Prepared. The only additional allowance you get is that you can run any size tire, whereas AWD cars are limited to 245s in STX.

Ferrodo products are my first choice! For the street 2500 and 3000 for the track also for the track I really like the hawk HT-14 but they are really hard on the rotor!

Washing your car too much makes it faster requiring better pads. Just stop washing your car and you'll be fine.

A slightly kinder alternative to the HT-14's are the Hawk DTC-70's. They're good up to 2000F if I remember correctly, and they're not as hard on the rotors. But they're not really at all streetable.

They are definitely race only pads. I never got a chance to try them on the yellow car before I left, but the Hawk engineering rep I talked to at SEMA last year said the DTC's were a much better pad than the HT series. They have better modulation at the limit, which is something we were never satisfied with using HT's.

The DTC-70's seemed to work just as good as the (soon to be discontinued) StopTech Club Race pads, except that they didn't overheat w/o brake ducts the way the CR's would. As far as modulation at the limit, I didn't really notice it too much, but ever since I switched to race tires, I don't think I'm braking 100% as hard as I could be for as long as I could be...

I looked back and found a modification thread. Dean was listing everyones modifications. With his red WRX he had in STX, he listed a STX legal map. I checked with COBB and they have a STX legal map. I'll have to get a turbo back to run the map but then on to the brakes.

I think the rest of my wagon is STX legal exept for my current ECU map. So now I should be able to look into some bigger rotors and better calipers and run in SP with a ST prepared car.

On the only bad note, a bigger rotor may not fit my current wheel. Dean had to give them up do to brake size. Time to open up the check book again.