Harness bar
 

Well, I've done some searching, and can't find anyone who makes a harness bar *specifically* for my car... Or at least, if they do, I can't find any listings.

I've gotten in touch with a company in Davis, CA, Evil Genius Racing, that does a ton of roll cages and custom fabrication, and they tell me that they can make one for me for about $250, which ain't too bad, but they would either need my car for a day, or at least another RS coupe to take measurements from. The guy I spoke to even said he'd offer a discount to any of my freinds/club members that also wanted a harness bar made, and would let him use their car for the day for measurements.


So... input/suggestions/directions? Anybody have an RS coupe living in Davis and want a harness bar!?! :lol: Or does anyone else know of any companies producing pre-fabbed ones for GC's?

You don't need a harness bar in a GM, you can just bolt the shoulder straps to the LATCH anchors over the back seat. They are close to vertical. Because of that I never looked that hard for a harness bar for my coupe, but looking around snce I got the wagon, $250 seems to be what they all cost, or more. Maybe Nick at Speedware can hook you up?

I'll check and see if there's anyone down here. Matt's wife has a coupe, but wouldn't want a harness bar, but if it's just a quick measuring thing, might be able to work something out. Her schedule's pretty beastly, though.

Yeah, I know I don't NEED a harness bar, but I don't NEED any of the crap on my car! :lol: It's really just a matter of wanting a *more secure* mounting for them. Sparco makes a bar specifically for 93-01 sedans and wagons, but it's not right for the coupe, for what reason I don't know.

Sybir, if that would work, it'd be awesome! I don't want anybody trying to F up their schedule for me tho, so if it's a headache, no big deal!

The reason the sedan bar doesn't work is the location of the B-pillar (and therefore the shoulder belt anchors) in the coupe relative to the seat mounts that the bar ties into.

The sedan bar won't work on a coupe because it's designed to bolt between the upper B-pillar seatbelt anchors IIRC. So it's sorta D shaped, which would put the bar into the back seats on a coupe.

Cory, I think you would save yourself a ton of headaches by going with some DOT legal Schroth harnesses. The 3 point bolts to the C-pillar seatbelt anchor and the factory lap belt anchors... they're nice and secure, won't make your back seat more unusable, are probably safer than a 4/5 point harness on a harness bar, and will cost a lot less than the bar and harnesses.

Also, I'd be hesitant to use the LATCH mounts for a harness. They're designed to bolt down a 15 lb baby in a 5 lb baby seat... not a 150 lb man in a 30 lb seat.

Anyway, my 2 cents is that harness bars make you feel good, but aren't really all that safe. Probably not a big deal while autocrossing... but for less money you can do the Schroths and be safer and still be strapped down nice and tight.

I've already got the harnesses tho, remember? And when I bought them, they were $30 cheaper than the Schroths, and have cam locks and everything!

F* the rear seat! The only person who sits back there is Bobby, and he doesn't mind riding in the trunk... :lol:

Yeah, at auto-x and the occasional PDX day, I don't think it's THAT big a deal, but was just thinking of ways to mount them a bit more securely. Guess it's time to just cage this bitch!

I hate the way the Schroths feel too. Dunno why. When I rode in the Frankensuby, just rubbed me the wrong way...

No biggie, just thought I'd see what you guys thought!

The passenger seat sucks. It's too high, making the belts fit poorly. I'm plenty comfortable in the driers seat w/ the schroths, but uncomfortable in the passenger seat.

Hey, Matt here.

I have an '01 coupe, but my wife is the primary driver. Would this guy in Davis really need the car for an entire day, or could I swing by on a Saturday/Sunday and have him do the measurements while I wait? With the spring semester starting next week, my having a full time job and her as well, I'm not sure if I could accomodate losing a car for a full day, but I could definitely drive it out there on a weekend and spend an hour or so. My house is 10 minutes from Davis. Find out and let me know (pref. via pm so I will actually get it since I'll probably forget to check this thread) and I'll see what we can do.

Scott: Maybe that's all then. I just remember thinking specifically "God this sucks" but I never tried the driver's one on.

Matt: I'll check with him and see what he says. He may want to have it for the whole day just so once he gets it together, he can install and check for fitment issues, but he may be able to get away with just taking measurements. I'll let you know, and thank you!

If he wants I can bring it back to check fitment too.

Cool. I sent him another e-mail, describing the situation. I'll shoot you a PM and let you know what he says!

Thanks again Matt!

I am not a big fan of harness bars, or non schroth harnesses in cars without roll protection.

If you want a place to attach 5+ point harnesses, they come on the harness bar on a roll bar.

The Schroth harnesses are the only ones that are DOT approved for a reason. They have done the safety engeneering and testing to meet those requirements. Other brands haven't.

An autopower 4 point is < $500... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1005822

So if you want a harness bar, put in a hoop or 4 point bar is my $.02...

I had been thinking about a roll bar as well, but was a bit out on the price. That's not too bad tho for the Autopower! I may have to check with them and see what it'd cost OTD.

Thanks Dean! $469 + shipping tho... it may be a while till my wallet agrees with the idea...

OR, until I have availability to a better way, what about the "schroth style" mounting, and I just put both of the tabs of the harnesses I already have to the rear seatbelt C pillar mounting point? It'll be a bit of a bitch since the tabs are biggger than the ones on the Schroth, but that's what I have a dremel for!

Thoughts?

It still beats walking.

I'm sorry, I am not going to make a reccomendation to install safety equipment in a manner other than how the manufacturer reccomends.

Well I've managed a hookup on free shipping from northern OR, and a co-worker who's willing to help me weld it in, so I'm calling Autopower to see what's the deal with the 4 point bar. ~$500 isn't that bad, and actual roll protection without having an entire cage to bang around on sounds like a winner.

Thanks for the link Dean.

Might also want to call these folks... they have the bassic race 4 point for $369 - $20 coupon... = $349

http://www.racerwheel.com/accessorie...es-subaru.html

Or at least use them as leverage...

Cool, you gonna buy Cory an '02/'03 Impreza to put it in? I'm not so sure using a different product's price is much for "leverage".

Also, I don't know anything about Autopower at all... the fact they sell a "street roll cage" makes me worried though. :eek:

The setup of the 4 point with cross bars looks pretty decent. I dunno about any of the other stuff, but with the 4 point welded in, from my perspective, it looks fairly stout...

I dunno. I was just looking to amp up the safety factor. I'm not afraid to pay for it, (seeing that I have a $500 helmet!) but I don't want to do anything that LOOKS safe but really isn't. (see: CrUShCO bolt in cage)

The original idea of a harness bar seems legitimate only based on the fact that Sparco makes them, to go with their harnesses, which have a name for being good equipment.

I don't know.

Got a link to any details on the cage?

I'm gonna give the dude a call today and ask some questions. The URL at the bottom of his posts on NASIOC was dead, so I couldn't check out his site...

Just the pics of the installs on the NASIOC thread, and the info. on the second site Dean posted.

Actually, I hit up the Autopower website....

I'm a little affeared of their "street" roll bars, but at least they say they're just for loooks... The "race" roll bars look like they're not too bad. (And their Spec Miata cage looks downright decent.) Just don't get the one with the bolt-in cross support. Go welded all the way!

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/I...g/DSC_2848.jpg

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollbars.asp

Unless I am mistaken, the first cage in Gary's Shehans WRX was an Autopower, so they pass SCCA muster... The pictures of the car at Fernley have that cage in it... you can tell becasue the front hoop goes around the dash, not through it.

I know he replaced it with a Custom TC Fabrication one that went through the dashboard and had more cross pieces, etc.

I agree, the one Scott has the pictured above is probably the minimum if you are lloking for real safety. It looks pretty nice and I think is the one in some of the pictures in the Nasioc thread.

What's the smaller horizontal flat peice for?

Oh SURELY I'd be getting the welded cage, and in fact likely welding it into the car too. As I mentioned before, the Cusco "bolt in roll cage" scares the crap out of me!

That's the tube for harness mounting... it's not flat, it just looks like it is.

I think the harnesses get mounted to the main cross tube, not the small one in the driver headrest area, but I could be mistaken.

Yeah, I believe the harnesses mount to the big cross bar. Don't know what that little piece of flat stock behind your head is...

Seatback brace, for aluminum racing shells (Kirkleys, etc)

Makes sense. Didn't think of that!

You don't want to mount the harnesses significantly lower than the seat back holes... that large lower crossbar is at about lumbar height... too low for the harnesses, hence the harness specific tube up higher.

In the picture I posted, there is no seat back brace.

Here's one w/ a brace:

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/I...g/DSC_2856.jpg

I thought that upper loop was for fixing a bracket to the top of a racing shell, as opposed to the adjustable one that mounts on the harness bar.

Not sure what other purpose it would serve.

A seat bracket needs to be adjustable fore/aft, unless you never plan on being able to adjust the seat's location.

Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts and possible drilling of holes as adjustment. 2nd drivers either suffer, or have alternate padding or molded foam inserts.

I remember one race, Boris Said was filling in at the last minute for somebody driving with his knees basically around his arms with his helmet hitting the roof...

Race seat brackets, even the "fixed" brackets, have multiple holes in them for adjustment purposes. Of course you can't adjust them mid-race (which is where the pad swapping comes in), but you certainly want/need to be able to adjust the seat. Welding a seat into the car w/ zero ability to move it is a dumb idea.

Here's the RaceTech brackets:

http://www.racetechseatsna.com/4000....20brackets.jpg

You can move them for/aft via the bolts through the floor, and adjust height/tilt with the side mount bolts into the seats.

Bolts, yes Bolts... many bolts... I heard that somewhere... :P

I don't know what that dinky little upper bracket pictured on the driver's side is, but it's not like any harness mount I've ever seen. Good luck if you try that...

Harnesses should mount to the main cross tube if possible. If the roll bar/cage & seat are designed and installed properly your shoulder straps should be at the correct angle. If for some reason it's not possible with a particular car then you can weld in a separate harness tube behind the seat slots; it shouldn't look like what's pictured there though...

:?:

Are you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I think it's okay to bolt in a seat, but not a roll cage? How much load does a 200lb person put on a seat in a wreck, vs. the load a 3300lb car puts on the cage? With the proper back plates and bolts, a seat can be bolted down just fine.

As far as the belt mount. I've seen it done that way before... but I can't tell from the picture if the piece they're using is adequate or not. It may be a solid bar, not a tube, in which case, it would be pretty hefty.

My original statement was "Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts..." Your response then went on to enumerate the bolts and show pretty pictures of the brackets the bolts went into.. and then proceded to imply I had suggested welding in a seat... which I clearly had not.

Once again, I have to summarize another Dean argument:

Dean: "That harness bar is for bolting to the seat back."
Scott: "No it's not, if it were the seat wouldn't be adjustable at all."
Dean: "Real race seats aren't adjustable!"
Scott: "They are adjustable via the bolts in the brackets and the adjustable seat back bracket."
Dean: "I said seats were adjustable via the bolts!"

Did I miss anything? :P

Bottom line, if you planned to attach the seat to that welded in bar, all the bolts in the world won't let you move that seat. You have to have an adjustable seat-back brace, like the one in the 2nd picture I posted. Then you're not drilling holes and whatnot to adjust the seat, you're using the holes designed into the seat brackets, and adjusting the back brace as necessary.

.......so what's the little flat stock peice for? :lol:

Try again Scott. I never said anything about the top bar other than not knowing what it was for.

The lower bar is for harnesses. You can follow the progression on the same damn Autopower Web site if you would care to.

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollbars.asp

Please note the second picture:and it's second bullet: No little bar in the picture, they must be talking about the big one!!!

I still do not know what the purpuse of the top bar is. Aaron suggested it was for seat backs, not I.

I would not trust a belt only secured to that small of a bar. If you don't beleive me, normlly you belive Austin... Aparently not this time.

I said adjustable = bolts.
You said adjustable = bolts.
You went over the edge talking about welding, etc...

Clearly you are right. I need more stickers.

Okay will do. :P

I responded to Aaron about the seat back use. You argued that seats don't move, which implied you were agreeing with the bar being usable for seat back mounting. I said using a fixed mount for the seat back would be dumb because you could never move the seat even though the brackets would normally allow it.

The actual wording was "All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube." I figure some applications require a second bar for proper belt angle, while others use the main bar. If the larger horizontal is indeed the "harness mount tube", and therefore isn't included in *every* roll hoop, then I would be scared to use any one of the roll bars that are missing that horizontal.

Like I said, I can't tell what that upper bar is made of. If it's not strong enough for belts, then I certainly wouldn't attach the belts there! All I know is that I've seen cages with a bar in that location specifically for mounting the belts to.

Sure, you said that seats can be moved via their mounting bolts. But you had also argued that the upper crossbar could be a seat bracket. If you're going to attach the seat to an immovable, welded in back bracket, no amount of bolts on the seat bottom will allow it to be moved.

Anyway, all this is pretty moot, and here's why, that bar isn't for belts or for the seat back:

http://www.mickandsarah.com/WRX-Wago...s/img_5143.jpg

That's the bolt in cage, in an Impreza wagon. The upper bar is way higher than I thought from the other picture. It's also solid metal, and not a round like I thought it was. So it's pretty beefy, but I wouldn't attach harnesses to it. The larger horizontal it a little lower than I'd want for harnesses (at least being as tall as I am) but it would work if you had a proper seat. So, I really don't know what that upper bar is for... as is in the photo, it really wouldn't add much strength to the cage... if it's supposed to reinforce the diagonal bar's connection with the main hoop, I think it would just shear due to the 90 angles on it during a rollover, instead of help out much. Maybe it's for a camera mount?

With that said, I wouldn't buy this cage. Certainly not the bolt in one. I don't like the bolt ends of all the pieces, or the slip fit of the c-pillar to main hoop bar. Hell, that won't even pass SCCA rules, as I believe all slip fits must be 8" overlap and double bolted. Additionally, that diagonal is in a position that will severely limit the passenger seat's location. You'll never be able to tilt it back more than like one click from upright. The passenger seats are already taller than the driver seats... so much for ever having a passenger over 5'6" at an autocross. With a helmet on, it'd be impossible to sit there w/o hitting your head on the ceiling. Maybe the weld-in cage for the coupe is a lot better, but I'd have to see exactly how it fits before I'd say it's a good idea.

Don't we all!

Scott, do you even bother to click links, or go back in the thread to see who said what?

If you go look at the bloody second bullet on the second bloody picture titled 'STREET-SPORT ROLL BAR' it says "Bolt-in harness mount tube for easy installation of safety harnesses."

It does not say And If I said the upper bar was a seat bracket, please provide the quote. IT WAS AARON!!!

Most any main roll hoop with a single diagonal bar limit passenger seat travel. If it bent around the seat, it would not be a diagonal bar. Though the Autopower web site does not have a footnote saying the seat travel is affected on the 01 Impreza line like it does for others, but I agree it would.

Are self stick address label stickers charities send you in the mail good for .01 or .1 horsepower? I got a whole sheet of them suckers!!! :banana:

Nope. Why would I go back to click links that I originally posted? ...I've been there already.

Never were we talking about the "Street-Sport Roll Bar". Always were we talking about the "Race Roll Bar", where it absolutely says: "All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube." Who cares what the for-looks-only bars have on them?

Here you go:

So yes, Aaron suggested the bar was for a seat brace. Then *you* argued with me. If Aaron says "A is true", and I say "no A is false", and you say "scott is wrong with regards to A", you are in fact also saying that "A is true". Elementary school logic.

If Aaron called me a drooling incoherent retard, and I said "no I'm not"... shouldn't I be offended if you say "yes you are"? Sure, you never explicitly called me a retard, but you sure implied it.

God, what a waste of time this thread has become. Maybe it's the 6 courses in logic and argumentation I took in college, coupled with the 15 odd years of computer programming... but I don't see why people have such a hard time with following along with a sequence of events. I guess it's my fault for over simplifying my summary back in post #43. I will agree, you didn't explicitly say the bar was far a seat brace. But you certainly did argue that's what it was for.

Anyway, I'm going to go home now... this thread has been another Scott v Dean semantic nightmare thread. One day I'll stop caring when others can't follow an argument, and resort to plain old personal attacks instead of attempting to clarify and re-clarify what's already plainly laid out in the thread. Arguing about arguing is easily the stupidest and most useless thing I've done this year.

Perhaps you need to go back to one of those logic classes.

Arron said A

You said Not A because B

I said Not B

Not B <> A

And I made a specific quote of a specific bullet clearly described and noting the progression down the said page I LINKED. If you choose to not follow the link and end up quoting some other portion of the page, it is not my fault.

You get into these situations because you do not take the time to read what people write and make assumptions about what people's intent was.

If you peel used stamps off of envelopes, they are like miniature stickers and worth more HP if you put them on your car.

Dean your side profile stats are cracking me up, ha.