VA Tech shooting!
 

WTF is wrong with people!? :mad: Some psycho locks people in a dorm, and just starts killing them!

Hell, just read the story, it'll describe it better than me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

I've been following this on AP and CNN all day. Pretty f'd up. The rumor is that some guy had a spat w/ his GF, shot the RA at her dorm, then 2 hours later used a couple of handguns to massacre a classroom full of students. Last I heard 31 dead, including the shooter, but no news if he was killed by the cops or himself.

:(

Yeah, crazy. I didn't see the news till just a few minutes ago.

Man, that's not good. How does someone get that many rounds off, from handguns, and not get tackled? I guess we'll see what happened eventually, maybe some potential victims took him down in the end....

The political fallout wont be pleasant either. Didn't they tell him that guns are illegal on campus?

Apparently in '05/'06 there was a big hoopla at the VT campus over a guy w/ a CCW getting in trouble for legally bringing a handgun to class. In Jan '06 VT made guns on campus illegal, even for registered CCW people. There will certainly be a lot of discussion about this when the dust settles over this incident.

The other issue, the dorm shooting happened like 2 hours before the classroom shooting... and yet all those people we unaware that there was a gun-man on the loose on campus, putting them in harms way.

And I can imagine if someone walks into an unsuspecting classroom w/ a pair of handguns and a vest full of spare clips he'll be able to kill a lot of people w/o being tackled. In fact the rumors are that at some point he was locked outside the room, but shot through the door into the room.

Yeah, campus "security" totally dropped the ball with a 2hr window between events. Actually, I can't even fathom how that happened. Probably a case of too much CYA going on, and not enough real leadership.

Yep, a responsible CCW holder might have ended things a few killings early.

As far as the victim resistance bit goes, close quarters 1 vs. 25, the guy with the handguns will lose. Unless he was a trained professional, extra guns and mags only help if you have lots of extra time. There's a reason why they train cops not to attempt a draw if a perp is rushing them inside 30ft and they don't already have the gun out. My point there is that the reoccuring theme in every major event like this is the typical lack of resistance offered. I know, I know, keyboard commando warning....

I heard that one class saw him coming, slammed the door and wedged it. He dropped a couple rounds through the door to no avail and continued down the hall.

It makes sense that a cop wouldn't want to draw down on someone that's close and intent on assaulting you. However, the shooter here wasn't being assaulted. "Fish in a barrel" comes to mind. I can't even fathom how horrifying it must have been to be in that classroom. How many people, half asleep in class at 9am, are prepared to literally fight for their lives at a moment's notice? I doubt I could have done anything in that situation.

Heros are called heros because they're rare. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like there was anyone in the room able to step up and try to save the day... or if there was, they weren't quick enough.

Geez this sucks! This is probably one of the worst things I have ever heard about. It's made me feel sick all day.

Hmmm, we'll see how many classrooms were involved. I still can't believe the length of timeline, even within the class building.....crazy. The internet rumour mill is saying Malaysian or similar on the shooter, with questionable ID.


From the Roanoke Times when the CCW bill was shot down:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

From the VT Prez today:

"We can't have an armed guard in front of every classroom every day of the year."


Huh, I guess the qualification courses, FBI background checks, and signoff by local law enforcement --- all required for CCW --- isn't good enough...

CCWs probably wouldn't have made a big difference. How many college students would have one, and how many of those would bother carrying on a daily basis to go to a 9 am Stats class?

What I want to know is why it took so long for somebody to figure out what was going on. Hell, my high school had telephones in every classroom that could intercom with all the others...

The school apparently sent out some e-mails.

The Washington Post published them here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041601105.html

So, two hours after the shooting students are told about it, but in a non-strongly worded e-mail. I read in one article that one interviewed student mentions she paid no attention to it since it sounding like everything was resolved and went off to class anyway. They probably should have canceled all classes for the day at 7:15 when the first 911 call was made, not when the shooter starts the second part of the rampage.

I went to Tech. My dormroom window looked out across the field to the West AJ dorm where the first shooting happened. I had several classes in Norris Hall over the years. Used to meet my GF on the steps of Holden Hall which is the other wing of the same building. What an awful f-ing thing to happen to such a nice place - such a great school. It really is a beautiful campus - kinda rural, very quiet. I hate to think what it will be like for the victim's families and friends. 33 people dead - this will touch everybody there, even on such a big campus of 20k+ students. I hope Va.Tech will not end up being remembered only for this like Kent State is for its notorious shooting. What a heinous aweful f-ing thing...

The more I read and hear about about this the more horrible I feel. This should never happen to people. I can't imagine what it's like over in that part of the country right now. The students, the faculty, the families... it's absolutely terrible.

I cant really think of anything that would prevent something like this from happening. The impact could be minimized if there was a proper system in place for in the event when this does happen. Perhaps this event will make the school district more aware of this real threat. If they have a fire alarm for fires to instantly alert everyone why cant they have a second alarm for something like this.

I don't really agree with the procedures in place to deal with these events. The schools tell everyone to just go on "lockdown", everyone stay where they are and the police will come rescue you. So people just huddle in a corner while a madman is stalking from room to room massacring people. Fuck that. I don't care what the schools tell you, I'm teaching my kid to either run or fight if something like that ever happens near them. Get the hell away or take them down, don't just lay there and "play dead" so he can put a bullet in the back of your head nice and easy. Christ, at least give him a moving target.

I whole-heartedly agree. Everybody says it's different when you're actually there, and I in a way, have been. Trust me, I ran like a little bitch! I can't see just cowering in a corner hoping nothing bad happens to you.

There were "reports" of students diving out of windows toward saftey, so it seems at least not EVERYONE played possum.

This is absolutely horrible to me. My GF's mom asked if we weren't "shocked and disgusted". I told her disgusted yes, but shocked, no, not really. With shit like this going on around the world on a daily basis, it's not too far fetched to me honestly. Terrible, but true.

The guy was standing 5 feet inside the only door in/out of the classroom with two semi-auto handguns, and evidently he knew what to do with them. I'm not sure where you expect these kids to run to. And attack him unarmed?!? Prolly half the kids in the classes survived doing nothing. If you attacked him then I'd give your chances at 1 in 10. The odds are better playing possum. Luckily the vast vast majority of people will never face this situation. I mean it's not like we live in Iraq, where 58 people were killed in political violence yesterday. 32 massacred is considered a mild day there since our... occupation.

That didn't work out too well for the kids in the library at Columbine, where the shooters walked around methodically putting rounds through everyone "playing possum". Or here either, it sounds like. Only 4 out of 25 people in one classroom able to walk out on their own after the bloodbath?

Even if 10 people rushed him and most were killed before taking him down, that's a lot fewer people dead than 30+.

Well you can be one of the 10. That's the attitude most would have in that situation. Also, those kids from Columbine were nuts. They told people they wouldn't shoot them and that they could run away and when they did they shot them in the back. I'm not really sure you can rely on one thing to do during something like this. There are too many variables.

I dont know if you have ever had a gun pulled on you but its not something that your mind can really prepare for. And everyone acts like this guy knocked on the door "im gonna come in and start shooting so get ready for that". It was probably extremely fast and the sound of a firearm in a closed room like that alone would be enough to drop you to the floor. Unless you have years of police training I doubt you will do much besides piss your pants or run(which there was no where for them to run). I can tell you this much. If we were playing paintball and I knew that I was going into a room full of people that I needed to shoot(even if you knew I was coming) I could waste half of you before you could even react. Let alone anyone running at me unarmed. I just think its real easy to minimize the situation and say "oh I would have totally done this" when you havnt been in it.

Of course you can't rely on one single thing. But laying there waiting to die is sure as shit not a good option.

These were college kids sitting in French class in bucolic rural smalltown Virginia, where being attacked by a crazed asian gunman is always a looming possibility. I can't believe they didn't remember what they learned in combat training, especially the girlz. Those compact cases can be deadly weapons. You must always be prepared. Around 600 Americans die each year from falling out of bed, and that's why I always wear my harness when I sleep. Thousands die of head injuries in car accidents, so that's why I alway wear a helmet when heading to Starbucks for my venti double vanilla latte with a touch of cinnamon. Certainly we should all be heavily armed at all times (especially in French class for gawd's sakes!!11!) to be prepared for that one in 2.378 million chance* that it might make a difference in incidents like this that happen "all the time" "these days". :rolleyes:



*Taxes, tags, and title not included. OAC. Please see gun dealer for details.

You guys are basically arguing which direction should I face when getting hit by a Mac Truck. Fight, Flight, "Play Dead"... they're all pretty hopeless. I'd like to think I'd try to do something to save myself, if not others in the room, but who knows really what I'd do. I gotta think that running for it would give you at least a tiny bit more chance, since you're a moving target... but if the guy's not actually intent on killing everyone, that also makes you into a higher priority target for him.

Would 10 people rushing him have worked? Probably, but you can't get 10 people to work together to order sandwiches... so unless the VT Rugby team was in that room, I got to think the gunman would be able to stop a "rush".

All in all, it's an extremely sad situation. The real issue here is not "what to do when the gunman attacks", or about gun control vs. CCW or 2nd Amendment rights (as this situation seems to be bringing up over at NASIOC), it's really a question of "what makes people snap like this, and how to we prevent it". This poor kid lost his shit and decided to kill himself and take a bunch of people with him... that's not normal behavior... I guess considering the population of the nation and our belief that freedom trumps safety, we should expect something like this every few decades, but a kid in school should have the resources available to him to get help before it comes to this.

In this case it saved some people. Kids survived by playing dead. But that may not work in another case.

Too bad we can't prevent crazy.:(

You may not be able to "prevent crazy" in all cases, but if you know homie is crazy, you can prevent him shooting up a classroom or four.

Speaking of preventing crazy....it's pretty amazing that this kind of stuff doesn't happen every week in this country. Considering the amount of violence in entertainment, the fact that mind-altering drugs, alcohol, etc are in wide use by large "alienated" segments of society, and our freedom of mobility.....

As far as survival skills/instinct.....we just don't have it. Even very basic self-defense martial arts instruction includes emphasis on remaining aware, avoiding conflict whenever possible, and being prepared to use any and all tactics in a "snap" situation like this. I'd rather see that sort of mandatory training in school than a few other .gov-sponsored programs.....we seem to be a collective crowd of cattle.....easy targets. The guy shot up 3+ classrooms, and apparently a silencer wasn't necessary to prevent ambush/retaliation tactics.

In other news, California alone continues to sustain something like 200 murders and 600 rapes per month......

That's the thing, we do know a lot people are crazy. A lot of people know they are crazy themselves. That's why people take meds, see doctors, psyciatrists whatever. But there are so many fucked up people you can't account for them all.

They are reporting that he was referred to counseling due to erratic behavior and disturbing writing in his creative writing class. There will be more about this I'm sure.



I lay awake last night thinking about all the classes I had in Norris Hall. I think all my ESM and materials classes were there - statics, dynamics, mechanics, materials, etc. They may have been in the same damn classrooms for all I know. Right across the street from Randolph Hall - the ME building where I spent most of my time. I just can't f-ing believe it.

Now that I'm back, my point in my last post was not that there "was" any other option for these unfortunate victims, just that, in agreement with Austin, that I would like to hope some people would have the instinct to to SOMETHING other than what the school adised, which was "play dead". I heard on the news last night, as I said before, that students WERE trying to leap from windows to safety, which just plain makes more sense to me.

And as I alluded, I HAVE stared down the barrel of a gun in the past, on more than one occasion, (I hung with a bad kind of people back in the day...) and on EVERY occasion, I have acted in one way or another. NEVER laid down. I've run like a bitch, and I've attacked a guy who was only an arm's length away. My only point in this paragraph is that I HAVE been in "such a situation" and HAVE reacted in the manner which I described. Defense training or not, I just can't see lying there waiting to die.

Scott's absolutely correct, the point here is NOT "what to do in case of", but "how can we help these 'disturbed' people/stop this from happening again." I personally, have no answer, but I sure hope SOMEONE does!

I agree about laying there. I dont think my fleeing legs would allow me to lay down until I was all the way back home. As far as seeing who is crazy or not. I think most of you will remember the incident up by galena where the guy stabbed his ex-girlfriend like 30 times at the park. No one thought he was crazy. I think he was like captain of the football team and very popular. I believe you can spot crazy in most cases but then there are always those who surprise everyone. Its just sad that this happens.

That's what's scary man. When there's no apparent "sign" or warning that the person involved may be "unstable." You hear most often in cases like this that "nobody saw it coming", and that's honestly terrifying!

Precisely why even the most civilized society offers no guarantees. In the end, it's up to the indivdual --- not the gov't, cops, or lawyers --- to be prepared for life's curveballs.

Does anybody else think it was a bad idea for NBC and others to play Cho's tapes and allow wide public access to them? I may be overly sensitive about it, but having this played over and over again can't be good for the recovery and healing process. Maybe wait a few months? I dunno...

http://www.thestar.com/images/assets/215371_3.JPG

Yeah, I think it was pretty stupid. Allowing him any more TV exposure is just not right.

People are fascinated by this kind of stuff. I know I am. This guy was fucked up, like real fucked up. People want to know why or what would drive a person to do something like this. I mean, you don't HAVE to watch it.

i dont understand what can make someone that mad.
36 cali schools were on lockdown today cause some guy said he was going to make VT look 'mild'

i heard someone brought a gun to spanish springs but thats just a rumor.

tomorrow is the aniversery of columbine.

i dont want to go to school tomorrow.

Because people value their own lives over others you can not blame them for not wanting to be the hero. When someone is pointing the gun specifically at you and threatening only you then the situation is different. You will be more likely to take action when you or someone you have a deep connection with is involved. For all you know the gunman already has his targets set. He may have only killed the teacher who wouldn't listen, the girl who wouldn't date him, and the guy who called him skinny; by being a hero you added one more to his death toll. Further more you attacking him could send him over the edge and make him think EVERYONE is agasint him not just the four he planned on killing.

In these situations peoples survival instict kicks in, the most logical way of saving your life is to at first do nothing, once you see him kill without reason start playing dead. No its not noble, no its not honorable, but its is the intelligent thing to do to secure ones own life. A few peoples instincts tell them to attack the assailent and sometimes not even to save everyone. They just do what their impulses say and unlike everyone else it is not to hide. Often times its the "heroes" who planned on saving everyone who end up cowering in fear and the person who actually stands up is someone you wouldn't expect. Instincts aren't something you can change through discourse.

Yeah, I heard UNR closed down last night for a threat too. Damn copycats.

Correct. They are changed through training.

Mind reading is not part of the game. If someone starts shooting in a crowded situation, EVERYONE is equally threatened. EVERYONE should be responding as if they are going to die unless action is taken. If that means everyone jumping out windows, so be it, but remaining a still target makes you a fish in a barrel.

Let me qualify --- I'm not blaming any individuals here, and I'm not saying I'd not freeze either. You don't know how you will react until you are placed in the scenario.

What I am saying is that the typical American mentality appears to be one that makes for easy victims, because we are not a society of decisive action takers. We are trained to go report problems to somebody rather than attempt to solve them ourselves. I would rather see more emphasis on preparedess and responsibility in the education system than the typical attempts to avoid it, instead trying to make society a perfectly safe place. Never going to happen, as long as there are people still breathing.

+1 Look at New Orleans during Katrina.

On the same note, UNR's classes were canceled last night due to some guy talking about going on a "mission" or something like that.
http://www.unr.edu/news/detail.aspx?id=2147

Prof. Librescu was buried today in Israel. He was the teacher who blocked the door so his students could jump out of the window. He was shot 5 times.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...=mostpop_story

Librescu was at Tech when I was there (him and Loganathan). I looked up my transcript to see if he taught any of my ESM classes, but the profs. are not listed.

Mormon off to build houses in Central America?

Jae and her madre were there when that happened. She was a little freaked out about the whole thing, and for good reason. People are just fucked up.

Scotty, very well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.