Weather is about here as well. I can tell because my Swamp cooler stopped doing much... It's only about 6 degrees cooler inside than out.

Really? Our AC is still doing what we tell it to do, which is cool it off until we say it's done cooling. :p

But you're using twelve cents a day more power!??!??!?!
:omg:

cold air burn

Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate. In out climate, that is somewhere north of $500/year... That's a set of Autocross tires... :P

Wallet burn...

I'm not sweating. BOburn.

Sure 80% lower, when you compare running an A/C set at 70F and a swamp cooler that gets the place down to 85F when it's 100F outside.

Compare apples to apples... how much does it cost a swamp cooler to keep a house at 72F all summer long vs. 72F from an A/C. Oh wait... swampers can't do that... not to mention all the added humidity from a swamp cooler that makes it feel warmer inside than it actually is.

Your 80% savings is like comparing my F-250's fuel mileage while towing to a moped. Sure the scooter is 80% cheaper to operate per mile... but it's not exactly towing 6000 lbs very easily.

analogy burn

I'm not knocking swamp coolers, they're awesome for places like Reno, since they work really well for cheap in low humidity environments... but they can't do more than 15-20 deg cooler than ambient, and they don't de-humidify... two things you get with a real heat-pump A/C.

I'd love a swamp cooler in my garage... but I don't think I could live without a real A/C in the house, regardless of how much more "expensive" they are to operate.

Werd.

You know me better than that...

http://www.h2ouse.net/tour/details/e...3CAEFB6E12CC4D

Same target temp, 1600 foot house 2003 data & energy costs... It is probably at least 10% higher today plus larger sq. feet.

If you want to see more data on the newer 2 stage coolers which add very little humidity and run as low as 1/24th the operating cost of AC over time, go here... http://www.oasysairconditioner.com/

In this climate, the added humidity is actual good compared to the drying affect of AC.

My swamp cooler isn't large enough to really cool this house which is why it gets warm. If it was, it would already be cool enough in here and the extra humidity would not matter.

That link doesn't specifically say what temperature was targeted, or that it was the same for both units.

The first link doesn't, but one of the referenced sources on that page does and the second does on their tech page, and do you honestly think an independent source doing a side by side comparison and publishing results would change the criteria?

Whatever...

Dean: I am saving money with my swamp cooler.

The rest of us: We are not any warmer in our homes in the summer than we wish to be thanks to our AC.

Swamp coolers cost less to operate but they don't have the capabilities AC does. It's not, and will never be, apples to oranges comparison.

They both accomplish the same goal: Maintaining a desired effective temperature for the person setting the thermostat.

Except dehumidifying which is a negative in this climate, what exactly does AC do that evaporative cooling doesn't?

Remind me again, how hot was it in your house last thrsday? I can't remember exactly, but I do remember that it was significantly warmer than it was in my house.

From Post 29:

My A/C can make it 70F/10% when it's 100F/80% outside. A swamp cooler doesn't work for better than about 25 degrees cooler regardless of the size, and doesn't work nearly at all once the ambient humidity is over 30%.

Plus, dehumidifying is not a negative, even in Reno's dry climate. Humidity raises the heat index, so less humid air feels cooler, even if it's the difference between 15% outside and 10% inside.

If swampcoolers and A/Cs really were the same thing, why don't you see computer labs that need cooling 24/7 running big swampcoolers... it would save them 80% on their massive cooling bills, wouldn't it? The answer of course is that swampcoolers, while much cheaper to operate, have a much smaller operational range where they're truly useful. Try running a swampcooler when it's 20F outside... now you have a block of ice on the roof. Meanwhile real air conditioning is trucking right along keeping that server room at 68F/30%.

Apples and oranges. Like I said, I'd love a swamper in the garage 'cause it'd be 15F cooler in there on a hot summer day, but I don't want to try to keep my house comfortable with one even if it's a ton cheaper. I like my house cool and dry, regardless of the outside conditions, and regardless of the additional cost.

I do comercial controls on HVAC equipment for a living. We run into the occasional swamp cooler. Everything else is Built-up air handler/VAV or package unit/Heat pump (including CRAC units).
Several hundred to one others vs. swampy.

I have to stick with dean on this. I just installed a swamp cooler last week and it got the house down to 67 when it was 95 outside. And the extra humidity has been nice, I don't really miss waking up with a dry nose and throat.

The goal is comfort, right?

Go read the links, and especially about the 2 stage coolers, you might learn something... This page is quite informative... http://www.oasysairconditioner.com/environment.html

They only slightly raise the humidity, and the air motion more than makes up for the increase in perceived temperature. And humidity is good and dry air is bad for you from physiologically perspective. Even in single stage coolers, the humidity rise is seldom uncomfortable, and again, the air motion often makes up for the difference in perceived temperature.

Do you know anything about commercial HVAC? A large percentage of it is not what you would call Air Conditioning at your home because it is too damn expensive!!! There are chillers, cooling towers, a whole lot of water, heat exchangers, etc... In many ways a cross between the two technologies, and in the appropriate climates, many companies do use large 2 stage evaporative cooling systems. I'll bet you money IGT's Computer rooms are not cooled by freon condensers, compressors and such like your house!!!!

I defer to you on the details of the large systems. I have only seen pieces and parts in the large buildings I've worked in the bowels of doing wiring, etc.

I do recall a whole lot of water being cooled and pumped around, heat exchangers, air handlers, etc. as I described one post up.

In CA and AZ, there appear to be far more Commercial 2 stage Evap systems, but they appear to only be gaining favor more recently and are just starting to make their way into homes.

Super. It doesn't change the fact that a swampcooler cannot do the same thing as an air conditioner. Just because a swampcooler is more efficient under ideal ambient conditions (95F, low humidity is pretty ideal for evaporative cooling) doesn't make the swampcooler more efficient in general.

If your target conditions are unachievable, then your efficiency is 0. An A/C can work outside the conditions of a swampcooler, and therefore comparing the two requires a massive asterisk next to the comparison. This "80% more efficient" claim is bunk unless you specify "under ideal swampcooler conditions with a target temp within the reach of the swamp cooler". Show me that 80% cost savings when it's 95F outside and 22F inside... oh wait evaporative coolers can't be used for refrigeration.

I refer back to the diesel truck vs moped analogy. Just because both things are "vehicles" doesn't make a comparison of their mileage useful. You might as well compare one dude with a shovel vs. a crane operated excavator and say that the one dude is the "more efficient" mining tool because it only requires a single operator compared to the crane's crew of 7.

If the designers weren't retarded, they'd just be running the air handler fan and pulling in outside air for the cooling load if it's 20F outside.

But you're right, overall the typical swamp cooler has a fairly narrow useful operating range.

A residential swamp cooler is not really analogous with a campus-sized pumped water loop, cooling tower, chiller, etc. setup. Even water-cooled chillers use refrigerant; they're like A/C units that cool down a chilled water loop instead of air, and their waste heat goes into a warm water loop that dumps into the cooling towers. The chilled water is pumped through heat exchangers in the air handlers that then blow design temp/humidity air into the conditioned spaces.

Your house unit cools by simply putting the supply air in direct contact with some water, resulting in cooler, more humid supply air.

I said they were different, didn't I?

And in at least the one in the building I used to work in, there was free flowing water being cooled by outside air. Now if we want to call that an open radiator instead of evaporative cooling, I'll buy that to an extent.

My points was that large computer rooms and buildings are not cooled by the same technology that cools the typical American home, and at least some of the principles of evaporative cooling and the heat capacity of water are used in many of them.

At least 2 of the Harrah's NV locations have backup evaporative cooling systems for their computer rooms which can be more easily driven by emergency power than their normal cooling systems.

Well, I'd disagree with the first part of your point since a refrigerant cycle is really what's at the heart of most residential & commercial systems.

The second part is valid though.

Most of us live in Nevada don't we? I guess I shouldn't have assumed we were talking about the conditions we live in and that actually apply to us.:rolleyes:

Who has the temp in their house set at 22F? I guess when I saw the title of the tread I thought it was about which works better here in hot dry Nevada. Not which is scientifically proven to be the better in extreme examples across the board.

But that still doesn't address the difference between home swampers and A/C's. You make an "80% efficiency" claim of evaporative coolers vs. heat pumps, but fail to acknowledge the far greater usefulness of A/C.

My reference to computer labs was to illustrate the limited usefulness of the type of cooler in your house. You can't use a pure swamp cooler in a lab environment because a lab requires greater operational range than they provide. Similarly, for most people, their home cooling desires also require a greater operational range, like being able to operate when there's greater than 30% ambient humidity. Just because industrial grade coolers leverage evaporative cooling as part of the system, doesn't make your swampcooler similar enough to my air conditioner to suddenly justify the invalid comparison from earlier between the two. Now we're talking about apples, oranges, and bowling balls.

Please try to keep up.

This thread started because Dean actually mentioned his swamp cooler wasn't working as well due to the higher humidity than normal. Then we were discussing the validity of the "80% more efficient" claim, which failed to take into account the limitations of a swamp cooler. I will readily admit that under ideal conditions swamp coolers are far more efficient, and that Reno is a terrific place to use them. But that doesn't make them "80% more efficient" than heat pumps in general, because a heat pump will work in a much greater operational range.

With regards to the 22F (and the computer labs, etc), they're just to illustrate the concept that different operation requirements have an effect on the discussion of efficiency. For example, what's the efficiency of an evaporative cooler vs. a heat pump for use in refrigeration? It's a bullshit question, because it's impossible to use an evaporative cooler for refrigeration. Similarly, if we're talking about home cooling in Nevada, comparing the two without explicitly recognizing the limitations of a swamp cooler, and saying a swamper is 80% more efficient, is just as bullshit of a conclusion as the discussion of refrigeration. A swamp cooler cannot do the same thing as an air conditioner, so while it's 80% more efficient under ideal swamp cooler conditions, it's also 99% less efficient when the humidity is at say 50% for example.

For the end goal of cooling a home to a reasonable level in our climate, I still contend they are not apples and oranges. The are Granny Smiths and Pippins. They each have additional pros and cons, but for that basic role, they are both very capable in climates such as ours.

Current humidity according to weather.com is 30% and yet my house with undersized swamp cooler is 72, 8 degrees below exterior, and perceived temp is probably closer to 70 or lower due to air movement, AKA wind chill.

I don't know if you have read the stuff from the CA study of the 2 stage evaporative units, but it is very enlightening.

Swamp coolers are not ideal for all conditions, but neither are compressor based AC units. I never claimed swamp coolers were a one for one replacement for AC in all environments.

I still contend that in this region, you can save in the neighborhood of 80% on your cooling costs by using evaporative cooling and still have a comfortable home.

I'd rather have a thermostat I can set and not think about, than "a comfortable home" by your definition. I don't consider 85F to be comfortable when it's 100F out. I want it to be 76F (though Lisa wouldn't mind the higher temps :lol:, she's always freezing ). And I still contend that claiming overall 80% better efficiency is nonsense if you can't realize the same functionality (76F when ambient is 100F).

Additionally, my water bill for keeping the grass alive is *far* higher than my cooling (electricity) bill. I need a way to get 80% more efficient sprinklers. That would make an actual difference in savings. It's far more expensive to heat the house in the winter (natural gas) than to cool it in the summer... running the A/C all the time doesn't bother me all that much.

I will say this though: when it's 110F out... even the A/C can barely keep up. I think I need both coolers... I'm gonna go rig up a water sprayer on the heat exchanger in the back yard. :P

Those 80% more efficient sprinklers would sure come in handy there. :lol:

Swamp coolers give you cancer and raise gas prices.

On those 105+degree days we had my swamp cooler kept my house below 80F running on the low setting. Normally I have to run it on low or it gets too cold for me. When I get home from work on a hot day I kick it into high for an hour to cool the house down, then on low until bedtime, then I turn it off. I should get a timer or t-stat.

Modern coolers can be/are thermostatically controlled.

They can do 76F@100F and do it more stably than AC over time. GO READ THE DAMN STUDY!!!

And considering the largely region specific nature of this board, the 80% claim is more than reasonable.

Now grass in this climate is just silly, but that is a whole other discussion. Desert/zero-scape and/or put in drip. I know, you are renting/leasing, but you should have thought of that when you selected it. :P right back at you...

Mmmmm, ice cream sammich yard decoration. Not sure how efficient that would be though.

Only on 100 octane. :P

Damn...

Air Conditioners, much like cheese, lead to obesity.

http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/too_muc...ead_to_obesity

Empirical evidence suggests otherwise... if there's any humidity.

Sure, if you qualify it with "in this region". You made a bold statement to the effect that swamp coolers and air conditioners are interchangeable technologies, and that swamp coolers are 80% more efficient. You didn't qualify it.

I like having a healthy green lawn, zero-scape is god awful looking IMO. If I was watering it as recommended by the landlord, it'd be brown. I'm making a conscious decision to spend the money to keep it green. Since this is America, I'm also complaining about the cost of my conscious decision, you know like bitching about how much Taco Bell sucks while eating a Burrito Supreme.

That's an energy saving strategy. That way you can keep the heat turned down in winter thanks to your shiny new coat of blubber.

Fixed for Scott's unfortunate reality!

:lol: "Fuck this burrito!"

*munch munch munch*

Of course! Blame everything except poor diet and lack of exercise.

Also, I love these headless fat-guy pics:

http://www.smm.org/buzz/media/images...ist_custom.jpg

That's anonymous to everyone that doesn't know the guy, but I'm sure all his friends are like "oh snaps Bob, you're totally the 'fat guy' in that fat guy picture!" They might as well show homey's face... it's not like there are millions of gut hanging little league umpires with their pictures online.

That guy should have gotten a swamp cooler

Hey can't afford one... he spends all his money on Fruit Loops with melted cheese and dipping ranch sauce.

Ah yes, Froot Loops: American Style.

Just needs gravy and mayo to be Canadian style.

I have repeatedly stated mine is undersized for my 3600 ft^2 house...
Hmmm Post #5..Post 11Looks like I mentioned our climate/region to me... :P

:roll:

Punctuation means something Dean.

"Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate. In our climate, that is somewhere north of $500/year..."

does not mean

"Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate, in our climate. That is somewhere north of $500/year..."

The two statements are quite different.