Let's talk about brakes!
 

So, after my little jaunt around Reno-Fernely Raceway's road course, I think I need to start considering a brake upgrade if I'm going to be tracking the car frequently.

Here are the popular options, and my initial results from research:

StopTech - Big, bad ass, expensive ($1700), Gary Sheehan races on 'em! 2-piece rotors / fixed calipers. Some people have complained about excessive knockback and clicking, but they've got dust shields so their very streetable. Rotors and pads aren't too expensive. Rota Attacks and P1's will clear 'em, so I'll just need a new set of winter rims.

Prodrive - Very capable, on par w/ the StopTechs. Expensive and hard to find (ask Kevin!). Rotors and pads cost bank aparently. Very high quality, on par w/ OEM.

Brembo - Retarded expensive. Very few rim options. Not quite as good as the StopTechs performance wise, but higher quality and more streetable.

STi 4-pots - Affordable. Uses stock WRX rotors, so doesn't really increase heat resistance. Doesn't actually make the car stop better either, but adds much needed "feel" to the brakes. Fits under tons of rims, including 16"ers... except for the OEM WRX 16'x7.5"s! :x

Baer (GT Kit) - More affordable ($900) than the other BBKs. Single piece rotor :( but has high quality OEM C5 Corvette calipers! :) There's confusion as to the size of the rotor in this kit... some people claim is so big that it'll only fit under 18" rims! :shock:

TWR - Almost as expensive as the StopTechs, but has no dust seals so you'll have to rebuild them once a year on a daily driver. Front and Rear kit available.

Willwood - Good track kit, but no dust seals. Rave reviews for the 6pot front / 4pot rear setup on track. Some people complain about build quality. On par with StopTechs cost-wise.

So, I'm sure there's plenty of info I'm missing or simply got wrong, so feel free to corect me!

So far, I'm leaning towards the StopTechs, but they're about $700 more than I want to spend. I'd really like something along the lines of the Baer kit, considering the price, but I'd much rather get the 2 piece rotor (I know Austin had issues w/ his till he upgraded to the 2-piece, right?) and the Alcon calipers from the more expensive Baer kits (which I don't even think they make in a WRX fitment yet) since the C5 calipers are only 2 pots. By the time you add those parts to a Baer kit, I might as well be running the StopTechs, which are pretty much the most popular of the trackable WRX kits.

My goal isn't really to decrease my stopping distance so much as it's to prevent fade (yes, I'm aware you can go to a very agressive pas and fluid on the stockers for a zero-fade setup, but then you start melting plastic parts and ruining wheel bearings) and to increase positive feel. I *really* want a stiff as hell pedal that has next to no throw... I just want a brick inbetween the clutch and gas that slows the car down as I push on it. :twisted: I've even thought about going to a single stage booster, but that seems like a far too complicated way to help the feel... when a BBK should do the same and help with fade.

What's everyone else's opinion? I know there's people out there w/ BBKs... let me know what works!

Well, from what I've read, and from what you've posted here, I of course would say the Stoptech's are my #1 choice, but the cost is very high. 2ND choice would be the Baer's, as long as they fit 17's, because having to run 18's pretty much wipes out all cost savings vs. the Stoptechs...However, a quick fix that is actually a good consideration is the STI 4 pots, like you said it won't add a ton of stopping power, but you'll have a more connected feel...

1. Stoptechs
2. Baer (if they fit 17's)
3. STi 4 POTS

Actually I have 1-piece cast iron rotors on mine, always have. The two-piece alum. hub rotors just shave off some unsprung weight. They seem to cost 2 to 3 times as much as 1 piece rotors, so it's not really worth the price to me yet.

[img:8fb4b5884b=400]http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/Austin's%20Mustang/Right%20Front%20Coilover%202.jpg[/img:8fb4b5884b]

The rotors I initially got with the Baer Track kit were gas-slotted, and apparently made by a different manufacturer than the ones I have now; the curved-vane vent holes in the rotor were quite a bit wider (which you would think was good), which actually meant there was less mass in the rotor (which is bad, in terms of heat anyway). As I recall I didn't season the brand new rotors right - so after a year or so they were vibrating like a quarter-fed honeymoon hotel bed. I bought a new set direct from Baer, plain rotors this time, and what I got had narrower vent holes.. but since the overall thickness is the same it means significantly more iron material present, which has actually resulted in much better ability to deal with heat. They've lasted for a couple years now IIRC, and the only problem at all is that I just noticed a few weeks ago there are some tiny tiny cracks developing on the firepath surface (my guess is it's just wear due to heat cycling). I'll keep an eye on them, and if they're still small when when it comes time for a new set of pads I'll just have the rotors turned.. if not, it'll be time for new rotors again.

Nice Austin.... that's the kinda info I need. I heard, the 2 piece rotors prevent "coning" of the rotor as they heat up meaning less knockback and better pad wear in addition to the lighter rotor.... have you noticed a bevel on your worn pads, or does AutoX not really heat things up enough to notice that?

Re: Let's talk about brakes!
 

I don't know what the STi option is; usually "pot" denotes a caliper, but you said it uses stock calipers?

http://www.baer.com/Products/BrakeSy...ntSystems.aspx

The Baer page explains dimensions & calipers used. Up to and including the GT systems use one of the 2 PBR caliper variants; Pro & up use Alcon 4 or 6 piston calipers

Re: Let's talk about brakes!
 

StopTech's it what you want and it sounds like they will save your car in the long run 8)

I know they may be hard to find...but what about endless? Do they even make a kit for the WRX?

Re: Let's talk about brakes!
 

Woops, I meant that is uses the stock rotors!

As far as the Baer kit for the WRX, it doens't seem to be specifically listed on their site. I guess they came out with a setup a while back that everyone hated, so they tried again with a newer one, but it uses such giant rotors that no rims fit. To be honest, I really don't know what's in the WRX kit anymore... and Baer's site isn't helping much!

nice Endless would just be sick :shock:

I don't have $1700 let alone $7500 for Endless Brakes. :lol:

I haven't heard that before; I haven't noticed any irregular wear of my pads with the "Track" kit, but I haven't been out on an actual track, either. :lol:

I would tend to think the caliper and caliper mounting bracket stiffness would have the most effect on keeping the pad oriented true to the rotor surface, since they're mounted up there on a lever arm. Off the top of my head, I would also think 2-piece rotors would flex more under a given load, since AFAIK they use an aluminum center hat of roughly equivalent thickness to the iron hat they replace, and iron is a stiffer material than aluminum.

I would have to say there problly not the best thing for street use then also :lol: thats a lot of money for brakes :x

Scott, I just went through this debate myself. After much searching and debating, I'm sticking to the old school STi 4pot/2pot setup. The rear 2 pots are dictated by the R180 hubs, not my belief that the stock rears (or Legacy rears) would fade, because they won't. I could have had all 4 wheels with STi golds, but decided that the limited wheel choices made that not so good. Brakes themselves are excellent given better than stock pads and rotors.

Next choice was Stoptech. I can get them cheaper than retail, they are EXCELLENT brakes, and quite a few 17" wheels suitable for an Impreza fit them. However, I decided to stick to the 4 pots I have for now. With stainless lines, Ate Racing fluid, and suitable pads on the OE rotrs, I really doubt I will fade them, at least not during autocross. Maybe, just maybe, at the track, but I doubt that too. The really big advantage, though, is spending half as much as Stoptechs cost and being able to run lighter 16" wheels, which means I can even keep a set of cheapo stocks or rotas with gravel tires for rallycross and "side trips". ;) If, and only if, I manage to fade these, then I may go to StopTechs later on. And if $$ were no object, I'd go with 4 piston APs with super jammy slotted 2 piece rotors. :)

Interesting comment on the alu vs. iron. As far as the mounting bracket flexing, I hear the biggest flex comes from the bearings/hub (at least on the WRX which is notorious) which means the *rotor* is what get's out of line, not the caliper. Check out this article on knockback to see what I mean: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/knockback.htm

Coning comes from the contact surface of the rotor getting hotter much faster than the hat portion. Because the outside edge of the rotor is expanding more than the inside part, it tries to move outward, making the rotor have a larger radius. But since it can't, it tips to the side instead to allow the expansion. 2 piece rotors prevent this by allowing the inner portion of the rotor to change shape without binding against itself. 2 piece rotors have some play in the fasteners for that reason.

Mmmmmm... "super jammy" rotors.... :lol:

I'm not really opposed to going with a more affordable alternative, expecially if I can upgrade all 4 corners for only $800. But since I got the crap 16"x6.5" stockers, even the 4-pots leave me shopping for another set of rims... unless I can find someone that'll trade me some <='01 rims for my stockers.

Where's a good place to buy the FHI 4-pot/2-pot setup? And where can you get the StopTechs for cheap! :twisted:

$700 for the front 4 pots at www.subaruwrxparts.com . That includes absolutely everything you need to do the swap. You don't need the rears since you have R160 hubs, and doing the Legacy disc upgrade (~$225) does you just as much good. Plus, the 2 pots usually go for about $1100. Go figure.

RS wheels go for about $250, and Rotas for not much more. And since the 17s for competition would no longer be necessary, you could even profit from that change.

As for the hookup... let's just say I gots connections y0. ;)

Tell me more about the Legacy rotor swap... is that just the ventilated rear rotor that's the same size as the WRX rear rotor? The WRX rear single-pot calipers fit over it?

Huh? You lost me, how do I profit on that deal? If I go to a 17" rim, even a cheap one, I'll still need to pay for the rims and a new set of snow tires, since my 16" Blizzaks won't fit.

Bastard! I'm a mod! (Here, on a board that doesn't really count... :lol:)

The Legacy brake swap (aka H6 swap) is just bigger, vented rotors and caliper brackets. Small increase in brake torque, good increase in fade resistance. Should be plenty for autocross, and sufficient for the track.

I thought you had 2 sets of 17" wheels? Selling 17" competition wheels in favor of RS wheels or 16" rotas for autocross would probably net you a profit.

Well, I need three sets of rims: snow, summer, and race. Right now I'm running stockers, P1's, and Rota Attacks for those jobs. If I were to get a set of RS rims, I could just swap my Blizzaks on 'em and be done with it. But I'd still have to find a way to trade my WRX rims for RS rims.

As far as racing on RS rims... they would be faster for acceleration, but the Azenis (my preferred race tire) only come in 215/45/16, so I'd be giving up width, and frankly it actually makes a difference, ask Theo, he raced on Stockers w/ Azenis last season and ended up w/ a less traction than me on the 225/45/17's. It's a shame that Falken doesn't make a wide size selection for the Azenis Sports, but that's what keeps 'em cheap I guess. I'd love some 245/35/16's on RS rims for race tires!! :twisted:

Kevin, one more question:

On the H6 upgrade, I'd prolly just get the bracket and a set of StopTech rotors... what car has that sized rear rotor? The '02 Legacy GT?

The H6 upgrade kit on subaruwrxparts.com is a solid rotor... doesn't seem worth it unless it's ventilated.

Ah, I forgot about the winter wheels needing upgrading too. Well, you wouldn't lose more than about $50-100 going from stocks to 16x7 RS wheels. However, any other worthy brake upgrade also presents this dilemma. RS wheels are cheaper than any 17s. The only "upgrade" that fits under your stock wheels are the Perrin/Wilwoods, but they suck. They have to be periodically rebuilt (which isn't that hard, but it's still harder than not doing it at all) and, the calipers themselves flex under strong pedal pressure. Not good.

Basically any late model Legacy. You can just order it with the 4 pots from Exeter online. It's pretty obvious which one it is. You could do rear StopTech rotors, but it's really overkill. Your rears don't need much help beyond pad/rotor choice. I only think the H6 upgrade is smart because it's barely more expensive than just doing rotors anyway.

Well, I wasn't planning on keeping the stockers if I did the brakes... so I might as well go with a big-ass upgrade... at least that was the thinking originally.

Interesting. Make sure you've got those things safety-wired... :lol:

Going with the STi stuff might be all you need; the beefier calipers will actually increase the heat storage capacity of the brakes.. not as much as larger iron rotors do, but a little. The extra pistons (as long as they're sized correctly for the rest of the system) & change in the way the rotor is being clamped will probably give a better feel like you said and let you modulate pressure better at the threshold. The biggest difference for track use though will probably come from running the correct heat range pads, and getting some cooling air on those front brakes. I'm not talking about the WRX's dookie stock "cooling ducts" either :lol: , I'm talking about the real thing. Even World Challenge cars don't do very well without any air ducting to the brakes.

I'm starting to think that's the way to go as well. Since I'm not planning on doing lots of track time, I probably can't justify the $1000 *more* the StopTechs will cost. Plus, the smaller 4-pots will be cheaper since I only need some RS rims instead of 17" rims and snow tires. Plus pads and rotors will be cheaper and as far as AutoX, these should give me all the benefit of a BBK (better feel and modulation) w/ the weight of bigger rotors, and no real heat drawbacks since I'm not fading my brakes in AutoX yet.

On a side note, does anyone know how to bleed the ABS portion of the brakes? I need to get that thing to cycle... my brakes are really spongy even after bleeding 'em... I think there's water in the fluid in the ABS system, and even after bleeding the main lines, they get polluted quickly. :(

Bleed them, then go find a place to do 3-4 very hard ABS stops. That opens the valves and cisrculates the fluid.

Then what? Bleed 'em again? :lol: That's expensive when you're running Motul!! Is Super-Blue any cheaper? And how can you guarentee the ABS really cycles all the fluid into the main loop? I guess I need to learn how all that shit's plumbed in there.

I pay $15 a liter for Ate. Motul is what, $50?

Ouch! Shop here: http://www.stoptech.com/cgi/Products...L&match2=exact

$15 for Motul, $12 for Ate. The only reason I'd go with Ate over the Motul is if it doesn't absorb water as quickly, cuz it's not that much cheaper.... and I can't really complain about the water in my Motul... since it's not really that bad up here in Reno... very low humidity.

Woah! Strike that! I just noticed the Ate comes in twice the quantity! :lol:

Thought of another question regarding the 4-pots... do they use the same size/pitch threading on the bleeder valve as the OEM WRX calipers? I'm hoping my speed bleeders just swap over. Also, I'm assuming my Goodridge SS brake lines will also work, yes?

Nope... but come on man... bleeders are like $20. :P

Yeah, but that's yet another thing to have to order and wait for UPS to screw up delivering.

Let's talk abdout getting you an STi

they have sweet brembos just another reason to STi it.

just do it.(if you want to)

Yah thats it get a STi problem solved :lol:

True !! Get an STi.. But sell your car. with mods... or without mods and tranfer the mods and make a fast(er) STi ;)
Or finish paying off your car.. get an Sti for a daily driver and your modded WRX for a track car...... Problem Solved !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, onto page 2 in under a day...

Hold onto your money for a moment folks...

I have over 450 track miles on my WRX, and many thousands more on the Stealth and A4, and hundreds of autocross runs on them as well as owning Wilwoods, and Brembos for the later cars, and want to throw in my $.02...

Lets start with brake fluid...

Go down to the Ford dealer and get 3 bottles of Ford/Motorcraft heavy duty brake fluid for about $4 per 12oz. It is hands down the budget racer fluid of choice. Extremely high dry boiling point. Flush & bleed your system with 1-2 bottles and leave the third unopened for bleeding at the track if needed. I have used ATE and others, and for the most part, they are a waste of $$$s. In this case only, FORD owns! All because the were idiots when designing their pickup trucks and ran the brake lines next to the exhaust. Doh.

Onto brakes.

Before you spend a lot of money on brakes, please try a decent set of pads, the stockers suck, and no, you cannot get decent pads at Kragen.

The national champion in STX last year switched from STI 4 pots in '02 back to WRX stockers with good pads in 03! Hmmmm...

First hand experience:
The stock WRX pads will fade in approximately 2 laps at Thunderhill, a fairly nice track for brakes! A set of EBC greens in the same calipers will run 40 minutes straight without fading their, and at Laguna Seca, one of the hardest tracks in the region on brakes. Oh, and the greens will practically stand the car on it's nose in comparison to stock as well. Significantly higher cf. The greens do appear to wear fairly fast, and will fade a bit if you abuse them a lot! I have a set of EBC reds I will throw in before the next track event to try. Greens should be a great autocross pad IMHO.

Other good pad choices I have used for performance street, autocross and some track are Porterfield R4S, Hawk HP plus, and Wilwood Q. I have heard good things about AXXIS Ultimates but have no first hand experience with them like I do the others.

So instead of spending thousands on brakes, wheels, etc. go spend about $100 on pads and fluid first. If you like what that does, maybe another hundred+ on stainless lines, and some rear pads. Maybe some Stoptech directional vented rotors.

Note: Good pads may be nosier on the street than stock. This is a physics thing, suck it up. The same is true of big brake kits.

Speed bleeders are cool, but a friend and a 6 pack or whatever is more fun.

Almost forgot... Learn to brake less. Braking is overrated. You can often get away with braking less than you think since usually the next thing you do is turn which also slows the car, and if you do it right, the car will actually turn better if you brake less and time it with your turn in correctly.

The best thing to spend $ on to make your car faster is on seat time for the driver, preferably with instruction!!!

:lol: :lol: As a Ford owner, I can verify that.

Been there already. In fact I have 3 unopened bottles in my garage right now. However, I've found that with the low *wet* boiling point, my brakes tend to fade quickly unless I flush (not just bleed) the system before every autocross. The Motul just seems to hold up better over several events.

I've already gone to Axxis Ultimates (I heard horror stories about the EBCs requiring new rotors with every other set of pads) and StopTech slotted rotors (since I wore the bejesus out of the stock rotors) as well as SS braided lines. On the AutoX course *the car friggen stops*. And I have virtually no fade over most courses (Atwater's the big exception). However brake feel is terrible. My pedal is mushy and I can get it to travel all the way to the floor during hard braking, which means my foot is too far past the gas to easily heel-toe.

Then there's the fade issue on track. I wasn't really pushing at all at Fernely, and just trying to haul the car down from 80 to 20 mph a few times was fading the brakes. Now I know it's possible to get the stock brakes to have zero fade (Gary Sheehan ran a USTCC race on stock brakes!). It requires very agressive/high temp pads, crazy hi-temp fluid, and active cooling ducts. The problem is that the heat sink is so small all that heat gets into the seals, bearings, etc. Gary was replacing his wheel bearings after *every* race and his tierods after every two, since he was boiling the grease in there! Not to mention the brakes themselves were baked clean of all rubber and seals. :lol:

My primary goal however, is to come up with a better brake feel. You're right about not needing to brake as much as you might think (though I'd suggest most people learning to AutoX don't brake enough). I'm not necessarily looking for more stopping power out there, I just want some confidence in my braking system. I want a stiff pedal that gives me an easier position for heel-toe. And I figure, if I'm spending money to achieve that, I might as well get something that's going to fade less, and stop faster, right?

Cliff Notes: I've already tried all the affordable ways to upgrade the brakes and the feel still isn't what I want, so I'm looking to upgrade primarily for feel, but since I'm paying I might as well get less fade and more stopping power.

Just take out the power booster, the pedal will be stiff as a rock. :lol:

:lol: Actually, I thought about trying to source a single stage booster (as opposed to the 2 stage booster that's on the car) from an old Legacy so the boost would at least be linear... but I don't think they'll be that cheap, and the install would be a nightmare. I think you'd have to lift the motor to get it out. :(

The single stage booster is indeed a nightmare. It will be the absolute last mod I do to the car, following the complete gutting of the interior, full cage, etc. etc.

Actually, if you're gonna have the motor out, you should grab one from the wreckers near S2 and put it in then! I think you need to grab the SS booster and the master cylinder... but I'm not 100% which cars had the single stage booster... I think the old Legacy Turbo did, but don't quote me on that.

Don't forgot Rotora. They make a front and rear upgrade that is similar in price, if not cheaper than stoptechs. Another option is STi 4 pot calipers with an AEM big rotor upgrade. If you go with the 4pots on stock rotors, I'm selling my MY98s, but I didn't really want to ship them.

JC

You're selling 4-pots? I didn't know you had 'em! I thought you had US WRX brakes... not JDM WRX brakes!

No man, my wheels.

If you have them long enough to bring them back here I will probably buy them.

Ahh, I get it. I just had the wrong thing in my head when I read that... I confused myself.

Are these the 98 goldies!? If they are, then I'd be down to buy 'em when you come back here... or potentially pay for the shipping if it's not too much. What kinda money we talking about?

Question: Do these Goldies fit on an STi? Remember when I told you about my cousin in TX who bought a White STi? Well he likes the JDM look .. so I was wondering if these fit the Sti?