Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras - Yet Another Brake Pad Thread.

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Yet Another Brake Pad Thread.

OK, in the vane of the Brake Fluid thread, I am creating this to find the best bang for the buck brake pads. This was prompted by the high prices for R4 pads for the 04 Brembo calipers.

Code:

Brand        Compound        STI-F        STI-R        Description

Axis        Ultimate        $75.00        $41.36        Axxis Ultimate is a kevlar- and ceramic-strengthened compound which offers far and away the best price to performance ratio currently available in a high-performance street pad. Proper bedding procedure is critical to the performance of this pad, but once complete, you can expect truly world-class bite, MOT, minimal rotor and pad wear, and very low noise levels. Dust production is medium-to-high. On front-engine platforms, the Ultimate is excellent for aggressive street and autocross use in the front calipers. It also works very well in the rear, for applications ranging from aggressive street to moderate track use. Ultimate is NOT recommended for use on road courses in front calipers as this can cause uneven pad deposition on rotors as well as resultant vibration. Street and autocross use only. OK for club-level track use in rear calipers. 

                                

Cobb        Street                $175.00        $150.00        Designed for street use, our Street Formula Brake Pads are the best balance of performance pad without excessive noise, brake dust, or rotor wear. A brake pad’s job is to create friction on the brake rotor to help slow the vehicle down, and our Street Formula pad excels when both cold and hot. Well suited for autocross competition and aggressive street driving – they have a very linear torque response to give you the confidence you need to brake later and dive deeper into the corners. When you’re looking for a suitable upgrade over the factory brake pads, look no further than our Street Formula Brake Pad. 

Cobb        Track                $200.00                If you are enjoying your STI at weekend track and driving school events, then we offer our Track Formula Front pad which is much better suited for this use. While the stock Brembo pads are good for the street, they quickly fade on the track. Our Track Formula pad is a compound specifically designed to be a balance between a full street and full race pad. It is actually neither, which makes it perfect for weekend sessions. It won't fade quickly like a street pad, but it won't destroy the rotors in short order like race pads. We only offer the Track Formula for the Front due to the rear brakes typically not getting hot enough during weekend track sessions to warrant a more aggressive pad. 

                                

EBC        GreenStuff        $109.00        $69.00        Designed for premium street driving offering better brake effect at loads and speed. EBC Greenstuff has a high initial brake effect and gives drivers confidence from first application of the brake pedal. There is no such thing as a NO DUST pad. The very nature of how a brake works requires that some dust be generated to avoid rotor vibration (shimmying). The EBC pad creates less dust and dust is more easily washed off than most. All pads create more dust as they are bedding in especially if rotors are worn. Nominal friction coefficient 0.55. For heavier faster cars and vehicles above 200bhp we strongly recommend Redstuff which DOES offer much less dust. 

EBC        RedStuff Ceramic$121.00        $95.00        Since this material was introduced in late 2003, it has received many positive write ups from performance drivers of faster cars such as the Impreza. You can read some of these write ups and comparisons to other performance materials on www.scoobynet.co.uk and www.subiegal.com. This is a truly impressive fast road pad for repeated heavy braking. It emits far less dust than semi-metallic pads and has been proven to stop a passenger car/sedan/sport compact/hot hatch 13 metres quicker than OEM pads from 100mph/160kph. Features EBC Brake-InTM surface coating which conditions rotor surface and accelerates pad bed-in.Nominal friction coefficient 0.5 with approx. 50% dust reduction compared to other pads.

EBC        YellowStuff 1793$130.00        $105.00        Although a full race material and capable of high temperature use with very good wear life, this new formulation sets a new trend in race type brake pad compounds. The “bite” from cold is superb which is uncommon with race materials (normally requiring warm-up) and makes this a pad which can be safely used on the highway as well as on the race track. This new formulation was used by numerous championship race and rally drivers in 2004 and is truly a milestone in brake pad material development. Nominal friction coefficient 0.6 with zero rotor damage and similar dust to original pads.

                                

Ferodo        DS2500                $193.50        $99.90        Ferodo DS2500 is a club race pad that can be used on the street and for light track use. This compound produces some noise on the street but retains good cold friction and has an MOT of around 1000 degrees F. It also has 35% less compressibility than competitive products giving it very good pedal feel and modulation characteristics. DS2500 has an average friction level of approximately (0.50) which remains constant at any speed and at any temperature up to 1000 

Ferodo        DS3000                $277.20        $133.20        Ferodo DS3000 is a full race pad that offers a very high average (0.62) coefficient of friction, flat torque curve, and very good modulation characteristics. DS3000 is a race-only compound, and is NOT to be used on street applications. 

                                

Hawk        HPS                $121.50        $75.60        HPS - High Performance Street disc brake pads are world renowned for increasing stopping power on your street legal vehicle. Increasing the performance of your vehicles braking system is easy when you choose Hawk Performance’s HPS braking compound. This unique Ferro-Carbon formula was developed for street performance using the safety and quality of Aerospace and Motorsports severe-duty friction technology. The High Performance Street compound offers a higher coefficient of friction over stock brake pads and can provide you 20-40% more stopping power and higher resistance to brake fade than most standard replacement pads. Less fade means you’ll have a highly durable brake pad with less brake dust.. 

Hawk        HP+                $160.20        $99.90        Hawk HP Plus is a pad with moderate dust production, moderate rotor wear, high initial bite, high average torque and a similar MOT to Hawk HPS. Great autocross pad. 

Hawk        HT-10                $162.00        $162.00        Hawk HT-10 is a full race pad that has good modulation and release characteristics, which make it a great race pad for the "weekend warrior." You can expect moderate rotor wear, moderate dust production, a stable torque curve, above-average bite, and an MOT of 1,600°F.

                                

Pagid        RS Sport Blue        $162.90        $124.20        Pagid RS 4-2-1 (Sport Blue) is a high-performance street compound with good fade characteristics and high cold friction. Although this compound is reasonably expensive, it provides similar friction characteristics to Axxis Ultimate with the exception that it produces slightly less dust. Sport Blue comes with noise-dampening shims to help keep unwanted noise to a minimum. 

Porterfield        R4S        $152.00        $68.00        For high performance and heavy-duty street conditions. Perfect for prolonged everyday street use while also being capable of tolerating the most severe street use without any fade. Rotor friendly of course. The R4-S friction level will give you an impressive increase in stopping ability with very minimum pedal effort. R4-S compound has the absolute lowest noise and dust levels, far below OEM equipment or any other high performance brake material. Good for autocrossing, some drivers' schools, and rallies. The R4-S compound is available for virtually any vehicle sold in the US. We also offer the R4-S in pad sizes for competition type calipers that are used under street driven conditions. 

Porterfield        R4        $209.00        $100.00        Designed specifically for heavy-duty motorsports. The carbon based semi-metallic R-4 materials allow the pad to absorb tremendous amounts of heat and dissipate it at very even rate. Carbon Kevlar material warms up to race temperature quickly, which is quite helpful during restarts, and when track time is limited. When used with cast iron and steel alloy rotors, the R-4 compound requires minimal bed-in period. Throughout the entire heat range, the carbon kevlar material will give extremely consistent modulation and predictably. This is truly the most rotor friendly racing brake pad material ever. Good for road courses, oval track, rally, vintage racing, autocross, club events or professional racing events. 

                                

                                

Project Mu        NS        $84.00        $74.00        Street Brake Pad with Superior Initial Stopping Power - Developed specifically for the street, NS outperforms any stock brake pads. Reliable in any weather or road conditions, NS gives outstanding initial stopping power which is a prime importance on the street. In addition to reducing brake dust and squeal, NS helps keep rotor wear to a minimum. Applicable Rotor Temp: (F&R) 0 to 400 deg. Celsius 

Project Mu        B-Force        $109.00        $99.00        Economical Street-Type Brake Pad with Superior Initial Stopping Power - With the clear objective to improve overall performance above that of stock brake pads, the street-type brake pad was developed for street use where initial stopping power and resistance to fading is of prime importance. In addition to reducing brake dust and squeal, these long-last pads help keep rotor wear to a minimum. Applicable Rotor Temp: (F&R) 0 to 400 deg. Celsius

Based on this, Axis ultimates probably are the answer for street/autocross, and I think I'm going to have to try the EBC Yellows. I liked the greens, and reds when I used them, so I have to give them a try I think.

I used Ferrodo DS3000s at the track and they were awesome. 258 a set from raceshopper.com. Next time I might try the ferrodo DS3000+, slightly higher coefficient of friction

Would EBC greenstuff be a decent choice for my daily-driven/aurocrossed RS? Or would I be better off saving some money with Axxis Ultimate?

Personally I'd recommend Hawk HPS if you're only going to run one pad, or Axxis Deluxe Plus for the street if you're willing to switch out. Talk to Khail if you want Hawk pads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

Would EBC greenstuff be a decent choice for my daily-driven/aurocrossed RS? Or would I be better off saving some money with Axxis Ultimate?

I really like the greens for autocross. They have great initial bite. The Ultimates are also good. The HP+ are probably cloes to those, and teh HPS a little less agressive. Bang for your buck, the Ultimates can't be beat.

Greens have an old reputation for ruining rotors, even on the street. I'm not sure if EBC has properly addressed the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

Greens have an old reputation for ruining rotors, even on the street. I'm not sure if EBC has properly addressed the problem.

As long as EBC sticks to motorcycles where they kick total ass, I wont get into selling muffler bearings.

Im not hater..really.

But if they turn your wheels black, why are they called green? Dont we all want green wheels at the end of a good drive?

If BF Goodrich cold package colored brake pads with their scorcher tires..they'd be onto something..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedtoy

You lost me. Has EBC addressed the excessive rotor wear issue with the greens, or not?

I don't think anyone's suggesting the actual color of the pad is important.

I dont believe they have..and the rest..was sleep deprived humor.

The Hawk HPS definitely look like they're worth considering.

I noticed at the last autox event that my brakes just don't provide enough friction to take advantage of the traction my tires have - I was standing on the pedal and only felt the ABS engage when I was on the more gravelly portions of the course. I can cope with the sponginess and lack of friction with the stock brakes, but I'd like to trim down my braking distance.

I want to replace my brake lines as well sometime soon. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

... but I'd like to trim down my braking distance.

Can't, that's purely a function of tires and driving surface provided you have enough brake friction to lock up the tires, which you do. What better pads will do for you is reduce the amount of force you have to put on the pedal to achieve lockup, and therefore the amount of time you have to spend on the brakes to get there. It also reduces the amount of time it takes to go from throttle -> threshold braking -> throttle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

?

"I was standing on the pedal and only felt the ABS engage when I was on the more gravelly portions of the course."

This tells me he could use more friction on the non-sucky surfaces. If he said he was lockin up on dry, smooth, clean surface, that would be different.

But..HPS is a close-to-stock replcaement for most cars. Some cars its a better pad, most cars its about par, and for properly designed sports car..its a worse pad.

I would suggest the R4-S, and if you wanna tune your braking system, you can mix in R-41, which carry HUGE friction levels cold, but do not use them where you expect higher than 600d temps. Street (not street racing)and autox is ok up front, and just about any non pure-roadrace use in the rear is perfect. But again, thats goin out there and tuning your braking system for what you use it for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedtoy

Agreed. With those symptoms a more aggressive pad should trim down braking distance.

anyone ever try project mu pads?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PecoFC

anyone ever try project μ pads?

fixed.

I ran greens and reds in the stock calipers, and was quite happy with them, and did not have any more "eating" rotors than with any other pad. I think I still have a set in the rear of the WRX that just won't die. EBC makes good stuff at reasonable prices IMHO.

I'm not sure you can convince me that ground up ceramic, and base metals, and some fancy epoxy on a metal plate is worth $200+ a set.

I will not descend into commenting on naming them after colors other than to say that they are not the only major pad manufacturer that does, and how many different letters can you add after R4 before it gets confusing?

I think MikeK ran reds at some point as well in his WRX.

Nothing will make up for an undersized caliper, and aggressive driving at the track. We all appear to like the ultimates, but Scott has proven they can't handle the heat at the track. :)

And I will continue to say this... ROTORS ARE A WEAR ITEM! Expect to replace, resurface, etc. them. This is amplified 100 fold by tracking them. At high temperatures, imperfections in ANY pad, or rotor can cause lines, groves, etc. to appear. they may or may not clear up with post track street driving/pad changes.

People are willing to pay $200+ for a set of pads, but bitch about rotor wear??? I got a full set of stock WRX rotors delivered for under $100.

Dean, rotor *wear* is expected. Premature *cracking* is not. Remember that set of rotors that came off your car w/ cracks all over the place? Remember the EBC greens you were running that caused those cracks? Remember me telling you "I told you so"? :P

Granted the Greens did a terrific job of stopping the car. But they put the hurt on the rotors to the tune of 1 set of rotors per set of pads. Maybe not a big deal on stock WRX rotors, since they're cheap, but running those on my StopTechs would turn those $100 pads into $400 pads. Meanwhile on my Ultimates/R4 shedule, I've gone through 2+ sets of Ultimates and 3+ sets of R4's and I'm just now thinking about replacing the friction rings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

I think MikeK ran reds at some point as well in his WRX.

At the SECCS track day in 04, I used about 50% of them ... although I wasn't actually going very fast back then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

I got a full set of stock WRX rotors delivered for under $100.

If you have a big enough shoe horn you might just get those onto your STi

Cracking is about heat, not wear. Any pad/rotor/load combination that could generate the kind of heat required would cause cracking. My rotors cracked due to an overtaxed brake system, not a pad compound.

The greens and reds have been great pads every time I have used them.

I don't know why you say one set of rotors per pad? I have only gone through 1 set of WRX rotors, and one set of Stoptechs, both of which were previously used, and at least 3 sets of WRX pads, and many sets of Stoptechs.

The "used" stock rotors you had were 2mm under minimum Scott, so they were long past dead, cracks or not, you just didn't know it, and I'm not sure how many other sets you went through. So don't throw stones about rotor wear.

ROTORS ARE A WEAR ITEM. If you want to stop a 3000lb car repeatedly from speed in a short distance, you will use up rotors, period, no matter what pads you use.

Yeah, but EBC still sponsors subiegal, and Hawk sponsors the SCCA. That helps the decision process. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

That's fine and dandy. But you can't deny that these pads have a public reputation for being hard on rotors. I know you like to believe that you know more than everyone to the point that even when 1000 people agree on something you can still think they're all wrong, but let's face it, the EBC's probably didn't get their reputation because all these people all tried EBC's and just happened to ruin their rotors quickly due to execessive driving while driving more carefully on every other pad they've tried.

Now, I heard not too long ago that EBC had attempted to address the issue, but I never heard about the results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

I don't know why you say one set of rotors per pad? I have only gone through 1 set of WRX rotors, and one set of Stoptechs, both of which were previously used, and at least 3 sets of WRX pads, and many sets of Stoptechs.

The complaints (back in 2002 or so when I was last shopping for pads) was that one set of EBC pads "ruined" the rotors. By my math, that's 1 set of rotors per set of pads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

The "used" stock rotors you had were 2mm under minimum Scott, so they were long past dead, cracks or not, you just didn't know it, and I'm not sure how many other sets you went through. So don't throw stones about rotor wear.

Who's throwing stones? My *used* rotors were 2mm under min... but they weren't cracked. The only rotors that I "ruined" as opposed to "used up" were the ones that came off my car after the RFR track day where I severely overheated them. I let things get so hot that the pads stopped wearing (remember they came off the car with more than half their thickness left), and instead the rotors began wearing. And even then, they weren't as bad as the spiderwebs you had on your rotors... they were just severly grooved.

You tout yourself as some master of racecraft that can stop on a dime with a fairy's foot of brake pressure... and I'm actually inclined to agree that you *are* very gentle on brakes, even when using them hard. So I've gotta ask again, isn't it likely that those EBC's did excessive damage to your rotors that a less-harsh pad perhaps wouldn't have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

ROTORS ARE A WEAR ITEM. If you want to stop a 3000lb car repeatedly from speed in a short distance, you will use up rotors, period, no matter what pads you use.

Thanks for repeating what nobody is arguing. Using rotors *is* expected. Having them trashed prematurely is not.

I did not start this thread to debate a four+ year old compound that has changed at least twice since then and it's effects. That compound is ancient history, lets drop it.

I stand by the EBC products I have listed, and unless you have recent personal experience with them, I would appreciate it if you left ancient heresay out of this.

And as I said, rotors crack due to heat. At least one of mine was still above minimum thickness, there just wasn't enough depth left to turn them.

Cracked <> ruined. Most of the time, cracks are on the surface only, and do not penetrate the rotor, and can be turned, or ground away.

Surface cracks are a common brake rotor phenomenon. IMHO a set of R4s, etc. would have done the same thing under those conditions.

Grooved or not, under minimum thickness = ruined. Your rotors were 2mm under minimum, so what pads were you using? Those are what I would refer to as rotor eaters.

Well, that's all fine and good, I've been very happy with the wear and performance I've got out of the Ferodo 2500's. I will be going to the 3000+ soon though.

One thing we forgot to ask....What would George Foreman say?
http://www.meineke.ca/images/aapexShow/ThumbsUp.jpg
Meineke Bitches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

I did not start this thread to debate a four+ year old compound that has changed at least twice since then and it's effects. That compound is ancient history, lets drop it.

Holy mother of god.

From my 1st post in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

Greens have an old reputation for ruining rotors, even on the street. I'm not sure if EBC has properly addressed the problem.

Then a bit later:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

Has EBC addressed the excessive rotor wear issue with the greens, or not?

Then the answer from the guy who's business it is to know:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedToy

I dont believe they have

If you've got contrary information, by all means let us have it. I'd be happy to drop the issue if it was in fact a non-issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

I stand by the EBC products I have listed, and unless you have recent personal experience with them, I would appreciate it if you left ancient heresay out of this.

My argument is not hearsay, I'm stating that the EBC's have a *reputation* for eating rotors, plus the rotors I saw that came off your EBC shod car were worse than any of the rotors that have come off mine.

But, hearsay or not, if the problem hasn't been addressed, the pads your recommending have a well known reputation for sucking. Once again, just because you don't think you have problems doesn't invalidate the argument that many others have had issues, it's only contrary data. As I see it the count is 1 for and at least 20 against.

Personally I don't have experience with the EBC's because I won't use a product that has so many people telling me to stay clear of it. Your claims to the contrary aren't enough to change my mind (especially since I still think the damage to your old rotors was exaserbated by the greens). What I need is evidence that EBC has fixed the problem and that many people are having success with the pads. And even then, I'm plenty happy w/ the Ultimates and R4's, so I probably still won't change my pads of choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

And as I said, rotors crack due to heat. At least one of mine was still above minimum thickness, there just wasn't enough depth left to turn them.

Cracked <> ruined. Most of the time, cracks are on the surface only, and do not penetrate the rotor, and can be turned, or ground away.

Surface cracks are a common brake rotor phenomenon. IMHO a set of R4s, etc. would have done the same thing under those conditions.

Grooved or not, under minimum thickness = ruined. Your rotors were 2mm under minimum, so what pads were you using? Those are what I would refer to as rotor eaters.

A rotor that's damaged to the point where it may have a catastrophic failure at any moment is a "ruined" rotor. Cracks in the rotor indicate metal fatigue, which means the rotors have exceeded their design limits and could fail. If you have the material to turn the rotors clean, you might be okay, but if we're talking about the cracks I remember seeing on your rotors a while back, I double they'd be turnable even on fresh rotors.

Quote:

Cracks are another concern with rotors. Cracks can form as a result of poor metallurgy in the rotor (too hard and too brittle because the rotor was allowed to cool too quickly during the casting process), and from excessive heat. Some minor surface cracking is tolerable and can often be removed by resurfacing, but large cracks or deep cracks weaken the rotor and increase the risk of catastrophic failure. So cracked rotors should always be replaced.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf10312.htm

However, being 2mm under minimum is probably not in danger of failure if the rotor is still smooth, it's just used up. Granted the rotor won't be as good a heat sink, and granted it should be replaced ASAP, but it's not at risk for catastrophic failure IMO. Talk to me about a rotor 5 or 6 mm under minimum and you'll get a different opinion.

So anyway, I really don't have that much at stake in this thread. Like I said, I'm happy w/ my pads. But there seem to be a truckload of people on this board recently that don't like to do their own research and instead ask people like you and me "what should I do" and take our suggestions as gospel. If you're going to recommend something, please represent it fairly. You and I both know about the EBC's reputation... for the sake of those that haven't been around for the last 5 years, at least mention it so I don't feel obligated to get into these rediculous arguments. A simple "EBC was known to be harsh on rotors, but I haven't seen that personally, perhaps you should do some research" in your recommendation would suffice instead of going off the deepend with me trying to somehow prove that the EBC's don't have a bad reputation.

Even if the ebc's have a reputation of wearing rotors, I gotta think its a matter of ymmv.

I ran at least 4 audi track events on the same set of EBC greens (having also used the dot brake fluid) with no issues. It's true that later I had warped rotors, but that was after having 'coasted down spooner summit with my foot on the brake' - according to Subaru's service department.

Maybe - wagons > sedans. ;)