Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
...I understand the complaints from the RT crowd. If the factor is indeed too aggressive, it needs to be fixed. But I don't see the split as good for either camp. And I don't understand why the people looking for national level practice (like yourself) are so concerned. If your goal is to get real practice in, chances are you won't be winning everyday because you should be trying new things, and seeing what works, what doesn't, etc... so when you do go to a national tour or a national pro, you've got knowledge and experience about what your car will do. If you're truly part of goal 2 from my other post, then ST vs RT should be a moot issue, right? Help me to understand where the national prep folks are coming from.
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And, help me understand why you see a split as not good for either camp? Because of diluting competition? How is a split making it less meaningful? When I stopped running for points this summer, I still looked at my results and compared them with others. Running out of class or 'away' from my previous competition did not change how hard I drove, or what I tried to learn. What else am I not seeing, that a split of RT and ST causes drivers from both camps from not being able to do this informally?
Why are national prep drivers so concerned? I can only speak for myself. First and foremost I am a Reno Region member/driver. I
want to compete in Reno Region as well as at national events, and when I compete in Reno Region I want a fair game. But when I am playing a game where I believe a rule is flawed, it no longer provides me with a fair game. So I have some choices, don't play/go somewhere else, ignore it, if you can't beat them join them, or speak up. I already did the 'don't play/ignore it' thing this year. And since it's more valuable to me to get race tire seat time in BS, switching wasn't a good option. (But, keep in mind that some of my seat time was in Mark's STU car.) Now that the season is over, I want an opportunity to speak up and see if it can be fixed. I'm wondering why that is seen as whining and complaining?
However, I have a problem with seeing if the 'flaw' can be fixed - I can't see a way for us to come up with a better number. Closer might be better, but when we deal in tenths and hundredths of a second sometimes, the old saying 'close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades' comes to mind. The closest way I can see to fixing the factor would be to see test results from somebody like TireRack, or GRM, someone who has the money and resources to:
1) use a driver who is 95-100% consistent in their driving skill
2) setup 3 or 5 or more car types to test the 'best' race tire, and the 'best' street tire, on the same wheel, with appropriate alignment settings.
3) segment test on asphast and concrete, on a course with multiple elements, measuring lateral g's, acceleration, braking and probably some other stuff that affects Solo times that I can't remember right now.
I hope people realize this is not only a Reno Region issue, several other regions have this sentiment as well. Some clips from other folks on sccaforums.com:
1. Rick Ruth's (PAX guy) comments from June 2007:
Re: Local Street Tire Indexed Class Issue: PAX Handicap
I have been asked about this issue for years. As has been mentioned, the easiest way would be to have a common multiplier (Reno does this). In the studies I've done, the situation is not workable. Comparing "R" compounds to Street Tires is too varying. The same cars can be 2 to 8 seconds apart from course to course, and week to week, depending on surface, temperature, weather, and other conditions.
Where I come from (Chicago), the Indexed Street Tire class is also very popular, to the point of being the largest class, by far. In discussing the possibility (or impossibility) of creating a workable multiplier, those folks didn't want to mess with all of the fun they're having. Not being able to be competitive in the overall scoring must not be a real issue for most. With the advent of an Indexed Street Tire class here in my new home (St. Louis), it has easily become the most popular class and continues to grow from event to event. It is very impressive when a car from the Street Tire group can break into the Top 20 on the overall Index results. I believe this system works, obviously well, and that the common Street Tire multiplier idea is not feasible.
Most understand that the PAX/RTP Index has inherent flaws. Certain course conditions may favor certain cars on a given day, but tend to even out over several events. That's why it is usable for certain Championships and other comparisons. To throw something that has a HUGE, obvious, flaw into the mix, would tend to make it absolutely meaningless. I suppose some think it already is. :-) I'm pleased to see that most find the Index very useful, for a lot of things. I work really hard trying to make it work out that way.
H's & K's,
Rick Ruth
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When our club was small (25-40 entries) we thought about giving people who ran on street tires in a race tire class a PAX handicap. (ie: G-stock Mini on street tires would get additional time subtracted because they were running street tires instead of race tires). At first we thought it would be a good idea because it would increase the class sizes. But the more we thought about it, the more we realized we were actually penalizing the "serious" drivers who chose to make the extra effort to run race tires ($$$ and time spent changing them). So instead, we formed a "Street Tire Class" where all the SCCA classes (except for STS, STS2, STX & STU) are combined and PAX'd to determine a winner. An unexpected result occured. The class ended up being an unofficial sportsmans class that was perfect for the less serious drivers.
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I think that the performance difference between street tires and R tires varies widely among different sites, from clean pavement to sandy asphalt. Perhaps a conservative adjustment would be in order, such that street and R tires would come out roughly even on gravelly asphalt. That would give R tired cars the advantage on grippier more predictable surfaces but the street tires cars would have a big advantage in the rain. The R tire classes might even be running the same street tires in that case, but with an index disadvantage. Perhaps eliminate the Street Tire adjustment for days when it rains.
I wouldn't like to see the index set up so that on typical local sites, drivers who have invested the time and money to have the equipment to compete in National events are actually at a disadvantage to drivers in more casually prepped vehicles.
It seems like an adjustment for street tires is guaranteed to upset some group of people, and probably won't really satisfy anybody.
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Or, another interesting option, Open PAX class for those who want to run national-prep (similar to our Pro class concept) - I am not adverse to this one:
Our region went the opposite direction. We dropped an indexed Tire class a few years ago and went with an Open PAX indexed class. We promote the Open PAX as a place for intermediate-to-advanced drivers and those who are looking to compete at higher levels (Prosolo, Nats, etc) and also understand the PAX system (something newbs generally don't get). Anyone is allowed to run Open PAX or in the regular classes of course, but we really try to get the R-comp and fast Street Touring guys into Open PAX to help open up the regular classes to regional/slower competitors.