[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk yesterday, sorry if I did....

?? I never though you sounded like a jerk! You post was one of the most informative posts regarding the stock WRX setup. In fact it's all the stuff I learned the 1st time around when I decided my brakes could use some help, so even though it's repeat info for me, I'm sure a lot of other people that haven't looked at brake upgrades will find it useful.

Originally Posted by Dean

People don't realize how hard it is to boil fluid in a street car. In about 99 percent of the brake fade instances, the problem is pad/rotor related. In our climate it should not be necessary to do more than bleed a couple ounces per corner before/after each event unless you run with to thin a pad so heat transfers to easily.
What do your rotors look like, and when was the last time they were turned?

I'm not so sure I'm actually boiling my fluid. I know when I bleed 'em I rarely see bubbles in the system. However, I do know that as time goes by, my pedal gets softer and softer, worse so if I've been autocrossing. The Motul seems to "soften" slower, i.e. I can go longer before the soft pedal pisses me off to the point I swap the fluid.

As far as my rotors, I've got the slotted StopTech stock replacements (I believe they're actually DBA rotors). And they look *great*. They've been on there since the last 4 weekends of autocross last season, so that's about 8 events and 10,000+ miles, and they're still looking pretty new.

Originally Posted by Dean

First, I've got dibs on your old stuff if you decide to upgrade, and somebody can use .
Most people forget rotors are a consumable item, just like pads, This should be a major consideration in selecting a brake system. And any performance or race pad will eat a rotor faster than stock pads. Unfortunately, nice thick directional vaned rotors are fairly expensive.

Going with the 4-pots will mean I'm still on the stock rotors, and since the SS lines should work with the 4-pots, the only thing I'd have for ya are some Axxis Ultimate front pads. Right now I've got about 50% left on the set in the calipers, and two sets of fronts in my garage, one set of which I've already offered to Art. If I get the 4-pots, the other sets all yours if you'd like to try 'em out. From what I understand the Ultimates won't grab quite as well as the EBC's, but they preserve the rotors a whole lot longer than the EBCs... or so I've heard. Now then, if I hit up a BBK, then I'll have a set of front SS lines for ya too!

I haven't heard of anyone making thicker stock WRX rotors. I agree that anything that increases mass will help prevent face by sinking heat. Idealy it'd be nice to find some directionally vented, thicker stock diameter rotors to go under the 4-pots, assuming you could get the 4-pots over the rotors.

Originally Posted by Dean

IMHO you should not experience fade with performance pads during an autocross, and only slightly likely with stock pads. There just is not enough heat involved.

As I mentioned, fade isn't really a problem with my current setup at an autoX. Feel is my big issue. Fade is aparent on the track however.

Originally Posted by Dean

Any performance brake system, stock to extreme requires a rebuild every year or so IMHO. This is just a reality of the temps we are talking about. Dust seals a re nice, but likely to get crisp and will likely need replacement as well, so I'm not sure they are a big deal on a performance system. My Wilwoods don't have them, but the Brembos do. Gary also knows how to manage his brake budget, and neither of us are driving at his level.

I don't think I'd like a setup without OEM quality brake seals. Since this is my daily driver, it sees winter roads, and I don't need that crap inside my brakes. As it is, I'm thinking I need to get a set of boots for my coilovers. The StopTechs are known to have great seals, and since they're so beefy I'd guess that even w/ occational tracking the heat won't be enough to wear out the seals for a few years. The same goes with the 4-pots, since they're litteraly OEM on the JDM WRXs... but since that system won't be quite as heat tollerant, I may end up rebuilding those once every 2 years or so.

Originally Posted by Dean

How does your setup feel on the street? One of my issues with the WRX is what appears to be a loss of brake boost. Debbie also reported this, have you experienced this? Not that it is the issue.

On the street, the brakes are pretty decent. The heel-toe alignment issues that bother me on course don't happen on the street since I never really have to press the pedal beyond halfway down. I've noticed the brake boost issues only when left foot braking. Because the booster is engine vacuum driven, getting on the throttle with the brake down kills the brake assist. I've actually thought about pulling the fuse for the booster on autoX days, but I'm not 100% sure what that'll do to the system (or if it's even possible to kill the booster that way... it may be fully mechanical). Any ideas?

Originally Posted by Dean

The AXXIS may not be up to the challenge. You might try some R4s or HPpluses for AutoX or R4s for track before you give up on your current system. I do like the ATE fluid, especially because you can get two colors so you can tell when you have purged the system.

Perhaps I should toss a set of different pads in there just for the hell of it. I'd also like to make sure I'm really flushing and bleeding the system correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm doing things right, but I've never seen it done by someone else... perhaps you've got a better technique. I'd especially like some way to flush the ABS system. (God I hate Subaru ABS...)

Originally Posted by Dean

Cross drilled turns the rotor into a cheese grater, and eats pads like they are going out of style. Flat are what most raceers use but they aren't as pretty. Sloted may have a minor ability to out gas better, but BBQing your pads may be the best way to prevent that. So my suggestion is go flat. Any brake kit that doesn't offer a flat disk is not for racing IMHO.

I don't believe pad outgassing is really an issue... the materials in pads these days just don't boil off like that anymore. Slots can help keep a "cleaner" pad surface (and the look cooler), but it does accelerate pad wear. Cross drilled rotors are a waste of money IMO. The only benefit is slightly less weight (since out gassing is a non-factor). The drawbacks are faster pad wear, and rotors that are much more prone to cracking. Some people claim those holes help cool, and while I agree there's more surface area, I can't imaging they help a lot more than a well designed ventilation system would.

So, I think I'm down to two choices: Subaru 4-pots on stock rotors and a set of RS rims for my existing snow tires (the budget choice at about $1000) or some StopTechs and a set of 17" rims and new snow tires (the insane-o choice at about $3000). Considering both choices should help me with my primary concern: brake feel, and since I'm not going to be tracking my car for any competitive reasons, I think the clear choice is to save $2000 and go with the 4-pots... but 1st I've got to deal with my bearings.