[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I was very clear in my requests, and you have a strange definition of mutually exclusive. Suspension and power have nothing to do with interior comfort & convenience.

You were clear enough to go as far as suggesting that Subaru fundamentally redesign the suspension on a car that's supposed to be a bolt-on's upgrade over the WRX. And suspension/power have *everything* to do with comfort and convenience when you're talking about actually selling the car. There is no market for a 350-400hp race-ready STi with a luxury interior, because it would cost too much to make and therefore get beat by cars like the 911 that people willing to spend $80k+ would rather have.

Originally Posted by Dean

Are you claiming the 2007 Limited in Matt & Carrie's garage doesn't exist?

Yeah, that's totally what I'm claiming. The '07 Limited was limited for a reason, there's no real market for it. Most the people that want an STi want the big wing, blingy brakes, etc. The Limited was not a souped up, more luxurious STi; it was a sleeper STi with leather seats out of the WRX. Which is great for someone like Carrie, since she's a motorhead with more sensible tastes... which is a rare combination.

Originally Posted by Dean

Are you also saying Subaru should not continue to innovate and improve their flagship product, but let it languish as they bring the lesser model up to it's level?

Who said the STi is "languishing"? My whole point is that the STi doesn't need updating yet explicitly because it's the class leader. The only car that's making up ground on the STi is the WRX... which is good for Subaru, in general. Subaru will probably update the STi in 2010 along with the rest of the lineup changes that are coming. But there's no reason to touch it in '09.

Originally Posted by Dean

Let's see, to lower weight, they could make the trunk and fenders aluminum as they already with the hood... They could trim the chassis like Mazda does with the Miata... Heck, they could use lighter materials and a better design for the front subframe brace as we have previously discussed and maybe reinforce the suspension pickups as you would like. Maybe use lighter materials for the exhaust. I don't think even all those combined would push the price even a couple grand..

And do you honestly believe they couldn't make 325-350HP or so without major changes? A slightly different turbo has basically zero cost delta and a little remaping.

They just finished making the hood steel on the WRX because aluminum is so damn expensive. Adding aluminum to the STi is expensive, especially since now you've got a complete second part to manufacture, whereas the existing rear hatch bolts right on and has already passed all the crash tests.

The front subframe is designed the way it is in order to pass crash safety rules. It could be lighter and stiffer if it were just a simple box steel brace under there, and it would certainly cost a crap ton less to make than the crazy waterformed steel beam in there now... but then they couldn't sell the car in the US.

Again, a lighter exhaust means a more expensive exhaust, since it's a materials issue... or a matter of taking out the cats, which they can't do. Plus it'd be too noisy w/o the resonators and large muffler. You can't sell a car that drones on the highway.

And it's obvious from the AP maps that they could easily bump the power output cheaply, but then they'd pay for it when people who abuse their cars occasionally break them all the time. There's a reason the STi only makes 305hp when we know the block and turbo is capable of closer to 400... warranty overhead.

Originally Posted by Dean

I do not know enough about the Rally car to speak to specific components, but maybe over time, if they have a better front suspension layout for it, it could be incorporated... FMIC??? Sequential tranny?

The suspension is the same design as what's on the car from the factory... it's required by the rules. In fact, the suspension on the road car was design specifically for rally use, we're already reaping those benefits. The WRC car just has beefed up arms, hubs, dampers, etc. It's fundamentally the same. I don't think there's a single WRC car anymore that uses double a-arm suspension... it's not strong enough, and too hard to work on. McStruts are best for rally.

The WRC car doesn't use a FMIC. It uses a V-mount radiator/intercooler setup. Switching to that on the STi would require a fundamental reorganization under the hood. It would reduce a ton of shared parts between the WRX and STi, including requiring a different chassis.

The sequential tranny's cost between $70k and $100k and would be shitty on a street car, unless you like to spin all 4 tires leaving every stop sign. Not to mention most people don't like cruising on the freeway at 6000rpm. But I guess they could spend a ton of money re-engineering the rally gearboxes for street use and lower costs... even though they already did that and came up with the incredibly good 6MT that's already in the car.

Originally Posted by Dean

What is so bloody unreasonable about any of this that it apparently makes the car somehow untenable for Subaru in your opinion? Do you expect the 2014 STI to still have the same power train and basically the same front suspension as the 2004?

If so, the only thing they will be selling is Outbacks to skiers and old ladies like you.

The above is what's "so bloody unreasonable". There's no reason to price the car more and more expensive for features that make it better when there's nothing out there threatening it accept for another Subaru (which is still a vastly inferior car when you get over the hp bump it got, though it's probably a better bang-for-the-buck now).

I expect the 2010 STi to be beefed up a bit in the power department, maybe get some visual stuff changed like the tail-lights perhaps, and yes I expect the suspension to remain fundamentally the same as the suspension on the 1971 GL, since it's seemed to work alright for the last 37 years for rally and street. I don't see any need for crazy lightweight stuff, or a new gearbox... though the Mistu quick-shift semi-auto may force Subaru's hand as the "gadget war" rages on between the Impreza and Lancer, even though the STi 6MT is still the best/strongest gearbox between the two cars.