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Originally Posted by Dean
I feel compeled to respond as this digresses into Ed/Street tuning bashing...
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I'm pretty sure the "Ed/street tuning bashing" is pretty non-existant in this thread. In fact I specifically stated that I'm *not* bashing Ed.
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Originally Posted by Dean
Scott, you have previously claimed or even bragged that your car in it's last incarnation spent an entire day on the dyno at Easy Street. To then turn around and claim that "I'm telling you that 4 hours is too long for a single map on a car with your mods" and is "is a waste of time" is somewhat hypocritical IMHO...
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1) My comments about time spent on the dyno at ESX were not bragging about the quality of my tune, they were bragging about how much ESX was willing to spend on my sponsorship.
2) For about the 100th time this month:
Hypocrisy is not a logical falacy. Even if I had in the past said that time=quality, it doesn't make my argument today false. I swear to god this is the #1 thing people on the internet seem not to understand about logical arguments, although it usually seems to come up in street racing threads rather than tuning threads.
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Originally Posted by Dean
Getting the base maps as accurate as possible is a significant advantage over relying on the ECU to learn how to adjust. You say the conditions will never be the same, but many will. The relatioship between the MAS, O2 sensors, injectors, and other sensors is not likely to significantly change. Yes, the specifc environment might, but much of what you are tuning for is matching all these items for a given set of conditions. RPM, Boost, etc. Relying on knock, and other sensors and ECU learning to tune your car is crap.
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You're not understanding my argument. If a tuner gets all the necessary maps where they need to be, then the tuning is done. Now I'm not a tuner, but I have to believe there is a point where "fine-tuning" isn't going to gain you anything. Hell, the consistancy on a dyno is +/- 5hp or so between back to back runs, right? If that's the case, how can you tune for that last 2hp or whatever? Anything you're doing at that granularity is going to result in fighting the ECU's learning ability. I'm not saying a tuner should rely on the ECU to finish tuning the car w/ knock sensors, etc, I'm just pointing out that once the car is "done", there's nothing really left to do that won't be undone by changing conditions. If a tuner can get the car running acceptably (hits target boost, AFRs, hp/tq, etc.) during the tuning session, spending another 2 hours to make it "perfect" is a waste of two hours because it's only "perfect" for that last pull.
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Originally Posted by Dean
I am not claiming to be an expert, but from just my first few months of just collecting data and learning about Street tuner, I know how many values there are to tune, and that most of what you are doing is making the different components inputs/outputs jive with each other. Barometric, and temperature tables are barely involved.
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That's how I understand it as well. And since 90% of the cars Subaru tuners see are so similar, they should be able to upload a map that's already 90% "jiving" right off the bat. And the remaining 10% of the work shouldn't be too difficult since it's stuff the tuner's got experience with. i.e. there should be very little guesswork or "tweaking" where you have to try something and see if it works, then try something else... etc.
...of course tuning something with significant mods, or an unusual configuration, or a weird target use (like a stock boost map STX car for example) is a different story.