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Originally Posted by Dean
And I disagree with your assertion, and am attempting to provide at least a logical explanation to exemplify my point. It is not my intent to argue, only discuss. While my percentages may not be accurate, the principal is, and I did not exaggerate the number of individual entries in just the maps ST has access to, it is hundreds.
The devil is in the details. Yes, you can create even have on hand good ballpark maps for a given set of mods, the AP is a perfect example of that, but that doesn't make it a custom tune for your specific car/mods/driving style, etc.
How long did Mike K. and Eric's Gruppe S. tunes take? Unless I am mistaken, over an hour each, with a on-site visit on at least Eric's required. Mike K's WRX had some real issues on a 1 hour tune. Nate apparently figured those out later perhaps if he had spent more time on Mike's tune he could have figured them out then.
There is my data/evidence. Can you provide data do back your assertions? Or perhaps as first hand empirical evidence, you should volunteer your car, and only have a maximum of 1 hour worth of tuning done on it. Or is it already well past that number?
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I don't know the details of MikeK's situation, so I've got no comment.
Eric's car had a factory defect, the restrictor pill wasn't completely drilled through, causing all the issues he had. Once that was fixed, his car came around immediately.
My car has never been one where a common bolt-on tune would be useful.
My first tune from ESX involved building a map that would work with both the stock boost curve and a high-boost curve, something the tuner had never done before.
My second tune involved protyping the GT30-10 for the 2.0L block, which S-Squared had never done before.
My 3rd tune on the 2.5 block that failed was plagued by a variety of problems due to the combo of ported/polished heads, BigMAF, TGV deletes, 800cc injectors, an oil breather issue, and incorrect spark plugs. That motor didn't even survive the tuning, let alone get near acceptable.
The 4th tune on my second 2.5L block couldn't be completed at S-Squared either because not all of the issues had been resolved since the previous block. However, once Mike at Gruppe-S got those cleared up, the tuning (of a break-in map) was completed in less than a day, though I don't know the actual time, as I haven't got the invoice for it yet.
Volenteering my car for a 1 hour tune is a rediculous idea as it would prove nothing. My car is well beyond the type of setup we're discussing, which is a car with common bolt-ons such as an intake and TBE. My heads alone would require going outside the normal tuning approach since they were ported and would certainly flow in an unusual way compared to any normal heads... nevermind the injector scaling, MAF scaling, and larger block.
Dean, what type of work do you do on a regular basis? Aren't there things you do everyday that are near second nature that perhaps took some work when you first started doing them? Is it too hard to grasp the idea that after seeing 500 WRX's with up-pipes, TBE, and intakes, a tuner would be able to nail a good, strong, safe map in about an hour? And that when he 1st started out tuning that combo of parts it took a lot longer before the tuner was satisfied?