[Dean]

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk yesterday, sorry if I did....

Originally Posted by sperry

Been there already. In fact I have 3 unopened bottles in my garage right now. However, I've found that with the low *wet* boiling point, my brakes tend to fade quickly unless I flush (not just bleed) the system before every autocross. The Motul just seems to hold up better over several events.

People don't realize how hard it is to boil fluid in a street car. In about 99 percent of the brake fade instances, the problem is pad/rotor related. In our climate it should not be necessary to do more than bleed a couple ounces per corner before/after each event unless you run with to thin a pad so heat transfers to easily.
What do your rotors look like, and when was the last time they were turned?

Originally Posted by Sperry

I've already gone to Axxis Ultimates (I heard horror stories about the EBCs requiring new rotors with every other set of pads) and StopTech slotted rotors (since I wore the bejesus out of the stock rotors) as well as SS braided lines.On the Auto course *the car friggen stops*. And I have virtually no fade over most courses (Atwater's the big exception). However brake feel is terrible. My pedal is mushy and I can get it to travel all the way to the floor during hard braking, which means my foot is too far past the gas to easily heel-toe.

First, I've got dibs on your old stuff if you decide to upgrade, and somebody can use .
Most people forget rotors are a consumable item, just like pads, This should be a major consideration in selecting a brake system. And any performance or race pad will eat a rotor faster than stock pads. Unfortunately, nice thick directional vaned rotors are fairly expensive.

IMHO you should not experience fade with performance pads during an autocross, and only slightly likely with stock pads. There just is not enough heat involved.

Originally Posted by sperry

Then there's the fade issue on track. I wasn't really pushing at all at Fernely, and just trying to haul the car down from 80 to 20 mph a few times was fading the brakes. Now I know it's possible to get the stock brakes to have zero fade (Gary Sheehan ran a USTCC race on stock brakes!). It requires very agressive/high temp pads, crazy hi-temp fluid, and active cooling ducts. The problem is that the heat sink is so small all that heat gets into the seals, bearings, etc. Gary was replacing his wheel bearings after *every* race and his tierods after every two, since he was boiling the grease in there! Not to mention the brakes themselves were baked clean of all rubber and seals.

Any performance brake system, stock to extreme requires a rebuild every year or so IMHO. This is just a reality of the temps we are talking about. Dust seals a re nice, but likely to get crisp and will likely need replacement as well, so I'm not sure they are a big deal on a performance system. My Wilwoods don't have them, but the Brembos do. Gary also knows how to manage his brake budget, and neither of us are driving at his level.

Originally Posted by sperry

My primary goal however, is to come up with a better brake feel. You're right about not needing to brake as much as you might think (though I'd suggest most people learning to AutoX don't brake enough). I'm not necessarily looking for more stopping power out there, I just want some confidence in my braking system. I want a stiff pedal that gives me an easier position for heel-toe. And I figure, if I'm spending money to achieve that, I might as well get something that's going to fade less, and stop faster, right?

Cliff Notes: I've already tried all the affordable ways to upgrade the brakes and the feel still isn't what I want, so I'm looking to upgrade primarily for feel, but since I'm paying I might as well get less fade and more stopping power.

How does your setup feel on the street? One of my issues with the WRX is what appears to be a loss of brake boost. Debbie also reported this, have you experienced this? Not that it is the issue.

I agree newbies often brake to little, or to much to late.

So how about some usefull information.

The AXXIS may not be up to the challenge. You might try some R4s or HPpluses for AutoX or R4s for track before you give up on your current system. I do like the ATE fluid, especially because you can get two colors so you can tell when you have purged the system.

Rotor diameter is what everybody talks about, but don't believe it. My Wilwoods are identical in diameter to stock, but much thicker and directional vaned and are incredible compared to stock in all respects. My Brembos which are bigger rotors and cross drilled do not stop as well as the Wilwoods. IMHO Thicker is better!

Cross drilled turns the rotor into a cheese grater, and eats pads like they are going out of style. Flat are what most raceers use but they aren't as pretty. Sloted may have a minor ability to out gas better, but BBQing your pads may be the best way to prevent that. So my suggestion is go flat. Any brake kit that doesn't offer a flat disk is not for racing IMHO.

I'll take a look at some of the WRX options and give you some suggestions.

I'll be back Sat. if you want to talk instead of type...