So long Pontiac.

[Nick Koan]

GM has announced that as part of their restructuring, they will be eliminating the Pontiac brand.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...27-709022.html

The plan also calls for cutting 21,000 hourly jobs and reduce dealership count by 40%. The Pontiac brand will be done by the end of the year.

"You have a strategy that wins or you have to stop," [new CEO Fritz] Henderson said. "We didn't have a strategy that allowed us to win with the Pontiac brand."

[sperry]

Idiots.

Didn't we play the "let's restructure GM" game before? Dropping Pontiac is retarded. Here's what they should have done:

Sell off Saab, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and interests in Daewoo, Fiat, Toyota, Suziki, etc.

Chevrolet - value oriented vehicles: Cobalt (compact FWD), Malibu (mid-size FWD), Impala (full-size FWD), G6 (mid-size RWD), G8 (full-size RWD)

Pontiac - sport oriented vehicles: Camaro, Sky Turbo, Corvette, Z06

GMC - trucks/vans/SUVs: 1500, 2500/HD, 3500/HD, Savana, Trailblazer (reengineered as a crossover SUV/minivan), Suburban

Cadillac - luxury oriented vehicles: CTS/CTS-V (shared platform w/ G6), STS (shared platform w/ G, Escalade (shared platform w/ Suburban)

Saturn - green/hybrid: "Saturn Edition" becomes the hybrid version of above cars... like a "Chevy G6 Saturn" would be a hybrid drive G6.

Buick - Overseas brand: rebranded selection of above vehicles for sale in China/Asia where the Buick name is HUGE

If there are any brands left that I forgot, well they should be dropped. But there's just no reason to kill whole lines of cars like all of Pontiac... just stop treating each brand as a sub-company of GM and take central control of them all. Then come up w/ a cohesive line of vehicles then use the existing brand names to help the public identify what they're getting. Make all the dealerships sell the whole lineup as "GM" dealerships, not a "Cadillac dealership" or a "Chevy dealership", etc.

I swear the general public has more knowledge about how to save GM than GM's leadership does.

[Nick Koan]

You forgot the Hummer brand!

Actually, I think both Hummer and Saturn are set to either be spun off or retired as well, sometime within the next 2 years. Saab might also get on the chopping block, but there seems to be a lot of popular support in Sweden to have a Swedish company buy them back.

[sperry]

I would be really surprised to see Saab die. I fully expect to see them spin-off back into their own company as GM did a decent job bringing them back from the brink in the late 90's.

And I though Hummer was already retired?

[Nick Koan]

According to wikipedia (which is never wrong) its basically set to be retired at the end of the current generation's planned lifecycle, so 2010 or so. And there are a few buyers interested in the brand, notably Mahindra & Mahindra

[DaveWRX]

That sucks. My first car was a pontiac grand prix ft. It was an ok car. The G8 is a beast of a car and they also have the GTO which is actually a fun car. Sad to see Pontiac go

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

...just stop treating each brand as a sub-company of GM and take central control of them all. Then come up w/ a cohesive line of vehicles then use the existing brand names to help the public identify what they're getting. Make all the dealerships sell the whole lineup as "GM" dealerships, not a "Cadillac dealership" or a "Chevy dealership", etc.

I swear the general public has more knowledge about how to save GM than GM's leadership does.

I agree with the last piece about them being GM dealerships, that would actually step over the imports that are splitting brands. But you would have to drop dealerships by 90% to do that.

I do think Pontiac and GMC need to die though. Both are mostly just rebranded Chevy products. Why did we ever need a Camaro and a Firebird or a whatever the 2 pickups or SUVs are? They add no value as they are largely indistinguishable. Chevy is the brand with the best recognition, those two don't add much in this day and age IMHO. They have been the next in line after Olds for a while.

That leaves Chevy, Saturn, Cadillac, Saturn and Buick. I would probably collapse Saturn and Buick or Buick and Cadillac over time.

I just wish they would declare bankruptcy so they can drop 3/4s of the dealerships.

[WRX06TR]

Originally Posted by DaveWRX

That sucks. My first car was a pontiac grand prix ft. It was an ok car. The G8 is a beast of a car and they also have the GTO which is actually a fun car. Sad to see Pontiac go

I think it was either 06 or 05 that Pontiac dropped the GTO, I think the G8 replaced it...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree with the last piece about them being GM dealerships, that would actually step over the imports that are splitting brands. But you would have to drop dealerships by 90% to do that.

I do think Pontiac and GMC need to die though. Both are mostly just rebranded Chevy products. Why did we ever need a Camaro and a Firebird or a whatever the 2 pickups or SUVs are? They add no value as they are largely indistinguishable. Chevy is the brand with the best recognition, those two don't add much in this day and age IMHO. They have been the next in line after Olds for a while.

That leaves Chevy, Saturn, Cadillac, Saturn and Buick. I would probably collapse Saturn and Buick or Buick and Cadillac over time.

I just wish they would declare bankruptcy so they can drop 3/4s of the dealerships.

That's a lot of Saturn.

But seriously, all of the GM brands are just rebadging of the same vehicles.

Blazer = Trailblazer = Bravada = Rainier = Envoy = Jimmy = H3 = 9-7X

If that's not an example of what GM is doing wrong, I don't know what is. That's not "platform sharing", that's spending a crapload of money for 8 different companies to manage and 8 different dealerships to sell the same damn mediocre SUV no one wants.

Killing Pontiac doesn't do squat to fix their real problem. Pontiac is just a name. GM needs to kill *all* their sub brands, insofar as them being independently managed entities. GM should build a single lineup of cars, and then put their recognizable names on the appropriate models. There should be no difference between a "Chevy G6" and a "Pontiac G6" aside from the symbol on the trunk-lid because they'd both be designed and built by GM proper. Those brand names have value, the massive overhead of treating those brand names as individual sub-companies has negative value.

So killing Pontiac is nothing but an unnecessary publicity stunt. "Ooh, poor GM has to kill their most storied brand... poor GM."

[100_Percent_Juice]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

I think it was either 06 or 05 that Pontiac dropped the GTO, I think the G8 replaced it...

I think it was 06. I just don't think it ever really caught on.

[Dean]

I agree from a structure standpoint, but why do we need a X and Y and Z version of G6 even if it is only the badge? And you that would never stand for long and we are back to make n version of body and interior parts for each brand again.

I hate to say it, but I think Saturn has more recognition and loyalty than Pontiac at this point.

Having a GM dealership with 6 brands is still too many. 3 or 4 is probably more reasonable with no model overlap. Toyota who is taking over in market share has what, 2 brands? Nissan = 2, Honda = 2 as well.

I know we love those old monikers, but times have changed. both the business and brands shoudl as well.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

I think it was 06. I just don't think it ever really caught on.

The new GTO was a fantastic car, but I think it was just too little too late to save Pontiac. People had moved on to cars like the STi that were faster, more practical, nicer, with better mileage.

The G8 was an attempt to make the GTO into a 4-door to at least allow kids to get in the back I guess.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree from a structure standpoint, but why do we need a X and Y and Z version of G6 even if it is only the badge? And you that would never stand for long and we are back to make n version of body and interior parts for each brand again.

I hate to say it, but I think Saturn has more recognition and loyalty than Pontiac at this point.

Having a GM dealership with 6 brands is still too many. 3 or 4 is probably more reasonable with no model overlap. Toyota who is taking over in market share has what, 2 brands? Nissan = 2, Honda = 2 as well.

I know we love those old monikers, but times have changed. both the business and brands shoudl as well.

Toyota has 3, Toyota, Lexus and Scion.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree from a structure standpoint, but why do we need a X and Y and Z version of G6 even if it is only the badge? And you that would never stand for long and we are back to make n version of body and interior parts for each brand again.

I hate to say it, but I think Saturn has more recognition and loyalty than Pontiac at this point.

Having a GM dealership with 6 brands is still too many. 3 or 4 is probably more reasonable with no model overlap. Toyota who is taking over in market share has what, 2 brands? Nissan = 2, Honda = 2 as well.

I know we love those old monikers, but times have changed. both the business and brands shoudl as well.

Is that in response to my re-org pipedream?

I don't think there would be three G6 versions... but I would see GM building three mid-sized cars: A Chevy branded FWD/optional-AWD econo sedan (Civic competitor), a Cadillac branded mid-sized luxury RWD car (BMW 3-series competitor), and then since they're already building the RWD platform, take the luxury out of it, cut the MSRP and go after the new market that cars like the Genesis are going for (you know, real platform sharing for a profit). Affordable RWD cars are going to make a comeback as all those SUV owners look for something more economical... not that I would expect GM to be forward looking... but remember, this is my pipedream.

And again, I'm not looking at the brands like brands... they're more like models. There shouldn't ever be two cars with different brand names that are functionally the same car. You'd never go to the GM dealership and try to figure out what the difference is between the Chevy Tahoe and the GMC Yukon that are both on the lot.

And I was considering Buick to be eliminated from the US market, and Saturn to be reduced to a post-fix indicating a "green" version of other models. So, at a US GM dealership, that's just Chevy/Pontiac/Cadillac plus GMC for trucks. I think that's pretty trimmed down, with very little overlap, and not much consumer confusion.

The biggest issue is that GM is going to need to reinvent itself in the public's perception too, not just on paper. And that means lots of good advertising... which costs money... which they don't have because they're so far gone at this point. My hopes for GM surviving are not high. Which doesn't even bother me that much, since really the only car I'd miss is the Corvette. As much as I like the Sky and GTO/G8, I'd never buy them. The 'Vette though... I could see one in my future at some point.

[Dean]

Gotcha. But why do you need GMC for trucks. Can't Chevy be the "brand" on the trucks as well? Toyota and Ford don't have a separate truck brand.

I don't think they will have to reinvent themselves that much from an image perspective. Make good reliable cars that people want is all they need to do.

[WRX06TR]

Originally Posted by sperry

The new GTO was a fantastic car, but I think it was just too little too late to save Pontiac. People had moved on to cars like the STi that were faster, more practical, nicer, with better mileage.

The G8 was an attempt to make the GTO into a 4-door to at least allow kids to get in the back I guess.

Yeah, I don't know if it was other options rather than just poor timing. I mean, gas prices were skyrocketing then and an LS2 V8 coupe wasn't really want people were clamoring for. If anything the Corvette jacked the sales from the GTO with a better performing coupe.

I agree that people moved on, but not to the imports we all love. That gang who didn't pick up the GTO were jumping on the Mustangs and Vettes. Not all is lost though, because for that last rush of GTO imports, Pontiac was just pulling them from the Monaro assembly line and turning them into left hand drives. I bet Vauxhall will manage so the car at least won't be totally lost to the world...

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by Dean

I don't think they will have to reinvent themselves that much from an image perspective. Make good reliable cars that people want is all they need to do.

The problem they might have had was they made one decent car people wanted to buy and just re-branded it to death. The market saturation of that "same" car stagnated the whole company.

In Scott's model the you take out the possibility of a bunch of brand engineering.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Gotcha. But why do you need GMC for trucks. Can't Chevy be the "brand" on the trucks as well? Toyota and Ford don't have a separate truck brand.

I don't think they will have to reinvent themselves that much from an image perspective. Make good reliable cars that people want is all they need to do.

My grandfather remarked to me after buying his '94 GMC Sierra new that back in the day, GMC was the strippy "work truck" brad and Chevy was the slightly less strippy "regular guy" truck. But by the early '90s GMC was being positioned as a pseudo-luxury version of Chevy truck platforms. Slightly more standard features, a handful of exclusive options. I think that a narrower overlap between the two brand names could still work. But overall, Scott is right- it's retarded to position two different vehicles directly against each other in the market. That is really the main difference between domestics and the imports- nobody in Japan or Germany does this, though Audi/VW come close.


Also Nick, I remember hearing a rumor that Scion was being folded back under the Toyota brand in the states, but I could be mistaken.

[wrxkidid]

Originally Posted by Dean

I would probably collapse Buick

Then what would the old people drive? haha.

I agree with consolodating dealerships but that would mean a lot of people out of work.

I like Scott's plan, but even then it seems like they could probably cut out a few more brands.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

They need to do away with all the multiple brands, period. It never made sense to me back in the day, and even less so now.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

They need to do away with all the multiple brands, period. It never made sense to me back in the day, and even less so now.

Well, back in the day, brands were basically just trim levels. The Pontiac was the more affordable Oakland, the Mercury was the upscaled Ford, etc. But the difference then was that car companies basically sold just sedans (not trucks, SUVs, compacts, wagons, sports cars, crossovers, vans, etc) and there was really just one car per brand... i.e. the 1938 Ford referred to just one car. So having several brands was akin to the company just offering difference performance/trim levels of what was essentially the same car.

Then, post WWII when the US auto market peaked, each brand expanded into selling its own lineup... which somehow continued for the next 60 years even though it was tantamount to competing with themselves for sales, resulted in higher production costs than necessary, and resulted in confusing choices for the consumer between too many lackluster products.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Buick needs to bring an updated version of the GN.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Buick needs to do nothing but die. Nobody here's going to buy an updated version of the GN, look at how well the GTO fared.

[Nick Koan]

Buick is like luxury brand #1 in China right now, which is odd. Doesn't mean they need to keep the nameplate here. Heck, most of the good Buicks are built in China and only available there.

[MattR]

My friend in Poland says all the big shots drive Buicks and Caddys, they are the bizness.