Stage Differences

[GirlieMole]

Hey guys,
Kinda new here, don't know too much about what makes a stage 1, stage 2, stage 3. What makes a car stage 1, 2, 3? I assume its CAI, UP, DP, CBE, and some tuning, but do not know for sure what makes up each stage in this process. If someone could serve me a lesson, or just post a link to a different thread thatd be great.

Tried searching "stage 1" and everything that came up just had things about stage 1, not necessarily a definition about what this consists of.

[WRX06TR]

The sig makes me think this is a spam post, but I'm bored and going to explain anyway

The stages are all a marketing ploy for companies. Everybody has a different interpretation. I usually just go by the Cobb stages because that's what is widely used.

Basically, stage 1 is a general retune of the stock car without any other mods. Typically a tuner will smooth out the tune for better drivability.

Stage 2 consists of a downpipe and a tune. A downpipe really frees up power in a turbocharged Subaru and the tune is necessary. Some companies add in an intake at this stage but not all.

Stage 3 really isn't all that well defined, it usually means a swapped turbo of some sort. Usually a small turbo upgrade but there isn't really a clear definition for this stage.

I know when I had my WRX the big thing was "Stage 2.5" which was an STi turbo on the WRX.

Anyway, hope that helps and welcome to the boards.

[KSpeed Auto]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

The stages are all a marketing ploy for companies. Everybody has a different interpretation. I usually just go by the Cobb stages because that's what is widely used.

Basically, stage 1 is a general retune of the stock car without any other mods. Typically a tuner will smooth out the tune for better drivability.

Stage 2 consists of a downpipe and a tune. A downpipe really frees up power in a turbocharged Subaru and the tune is necessary. Some companies add in an intake at this stage but not all.

Stage 3 really isn't all that well defined, it usually means a swapped turbo of some sort. Usually a small turbo upgrade but there isn't really a clear definition for this stage.

I know when I had my WRX the big thing was "Stage 2.5" which was an STi turbo on the WRX.

Anyway, hope that helps and welcome to the boards.

Good summary. Stage 1 does also include more boost though.

[knucklesplitter]

Alas, GirlieMole is almost certainly a spammer...

http://www.google.com/search?q=GirlieMole+spammer

[IheartSTI]

the whole "stage" thing is crap anyways. who would waste their money on a tune on a completely stock car. at least let the thing breath!

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

Alas, GirlieMole is almost certainly a spammer...

http://www.google.com/search?q=GirlieMole+spammer

Yeah, I got rid of her signature for now. If she comes back with more spam, it may constitute an outright ban.

But, for the most part this post is at least somewhat interesting (or can lead to an interesting discussion) so we'll leave it for now.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

the whole "stage" thing is crap anyways. who would waste their money on a tune on a completely stock car. at least let the thing breath!

People with '08 STi's that aren't interested in pinging on 91 octane in the name of meeting CA emissions limits?

[WRX06TR]

^ How about any STi running on 91?

[cody]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

the whole "stage" thing is crap anyways. who would waste their money on a tune on a completely stock car. at least let the thing breath!

People who don't work on their own car and want to "retain" their warranty, but add performance and safety. I'm with you though, stage II was my first (and last, lol) step.

[KSpeed Auto]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

the whole "stage" thing is crap anyways. who would waste their money on a tune on a completely stock car. at least let the thing breath!

A stage 1 tune makes a noticeable difference on an otherwise stock STI, especially a custom tune up here at elevation.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

^ How about any STi running on 91?

I guess I missed the memo that "all" STis have crap pistons and tunes. 'Cause I certainly don't remember that being the case with the '04/'05 cars. Sure, they've gotten progressively worse with the lean tunes and cheaper pistons. But the 1st US STis were pretty stout.

I know the '05 block I had took a retarded level of abuse before I killed it, whereas the '08 block broke a ring land after one autocross with an overly-rich tune.

[sperry]

Oh, and BTW: Stage 1 usually included an up-pipe on cars w/ the catted up-pipes from the factory. "Stage 0" was just a reflash on a mechanically stock car.

STis just didn't need an up-pipe for stage 1 because they didn't have a cat to begin with.

And "Stage 2" usually includes a full TBE, not just the downpipe, even if that's essentially the most important part.

[KSpeed Auto]

Originally Posted by sperry

I guess I missed the memo that "all" STis have crap pistons and tunes. 'Cause I certainly don't remember that being the case with the '04/'05 cars. Sure, they've gotten progressively worse with the lean tunes and cheaper pistons. But the 1st US STis were pretty stout.

My 04 STI pinged audibly on 91 octane when it was new and stock. I think there was a factory reflash for this. I see stock STI's with IAM <1 and lots of knock learning sometimes (when I hook up to check them). I really think the stock tune is meant for 93 octane.

The newer STI tunes stay in closed loop (targeting 14+:1) too long for emissions reasons, and this leads to knock, even moreso with an aftermarket downpipe and no tune.

[KSpeed Auto]

Originally Posted by sperry

And "Stage 2" usually includes a full TBE, not just the downpipe,

A downpipe is all that is required, and there is a negligible benefit to a cat-back at stage 2 levels on an STI.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by KSpeed Auto

A downpipe is all that is required, and there is a negligible benefit to a cat-back at stage 2 levels on an STI.

Whether or not a downpipe is all that's required (which is what I even pointed out) doesn't change the fact that "stage 2" traditionally meant up-pipe, TBE, and reflash.

After all, the whole "stage" thing is basically useless nomenclature as far as I'm concerned. What stage is a stock-turbo with headers, up-pipe, and an axle-back? How about a reflash, fuel pump, and downpipe vs. a reflash, fuel pump, downpipe and larger TMIC? Etc. "Stages" are basically useless unless you're playing Gran Turismo.

[WRX06TR]

Originally Posted by KSpeed Auto

My 04 STI pinged audibly on 91 octane when it was new and stock. I think there was a factory reflash for this. I see stock STI's with IAM <1 and lots of knock learning sometimes (when I hook up to check them). I really think the stock tune is meant for 93 octane.

The newer STI tunes stay in closed loop (targeting 14+:1) too long for emissions reasons, and this leads to knock, even moreso with an aftermarket downpipe and no tune.

Yeah this is what I was referring to. The STi manual even states that it is meant to run on 93 and specifies that if necessary 91 octane can be run.

[IheartSTI]

for you guys logging stock cars... how many counts were you detecting?

[KSpeed Auto]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

for you guys logging stock cars... how many counts were you detecting?

My logging software cannot log "knock counts" on Subaru ECUs, and I don't know of any that do. I watch three things : IAM (Ignition Advance Multiplier), FBKC (Feedback Knock Correction), FLKC (Fine Learning Knock Correction).

I can hook up to a stationary Suibaru with the laptop and read IAM, and the whole FLKC table in a matter of seconds, so I do this to lots of cars. When I have done this to some stock STI's, I have seen IAM<1 and FLKC in the -1 to -2 range in many places. Basically what this means is the car is knocking and the ECU is pulling timing. In general you want the IAM to be 1 (or 16 on earlier WRX) and the FLKC table to be all or almost all 0's. I have seen stock STIs running great like this too, so there is variability between cars, and/or weather, and/or fuel quality. The conclusion I draw is that the stock STI tune is a little on the ragged edge for our shitty CA91 octane.

A "Stage 1" tune on an otherwise stock STI will fix this while at the same time adding power by increasing boost and by optimizing timing and fueling.

[IheartSTI]

Interesting. 91 very so much depending on where you get fuel. In my evo I only used chevron because when I went to 711 or ampm my car would start knocking a lot. Drain the tank use good fuel and it would go back to normal. Of course having a knock light right in front of you was nice.

[renosubby]

Originally Posted by KSpeed Auto

My logging software cannot log "knock counts" on Subaru ECUs, and I don't know of any that do. I watch three things : IAM (Ignition Advance Multiplier), FBKC (Feedback Knock Correction), FLKC (Fine Learning Knock Correction).

I can hook up to a stationary Suibaru with the laptop and read IAM, and the whole FLKC table in a matter of seconds, so I do this to lots of cars. When I have done this to some stock STI's, I have seen IAM<1 and FLKC in the -1 to -2 range in many places. Basically what this means is the car is knocking and the ECU is pulling timing. In general you want the IAM to be 1 (or 16 on earlier WRX) and the FLKC table to be all or almost all 0's. I have seen stock STIs running great like this too, so there is variability between cars, and/or weather, and/or fuel quality. The conclusion I draw is that the stock STI tune is a little on the ragged edge for our shitty CA91 octane.

A "Stage 1" tune on an otherwise stock STI will fix this while at the same time adding power by increasing boost and by optimizing timing and fueling.

It can reads knock counts but as you said its in FBKC, so -1.4 is 1 count-2.8 is 2 etc... The stock tune is pretty much crap, but subaru did it and if they blow up then is warrantied. I understand you can always flash a car back to stock and everything, but unless you want the most out of your car with pretty much zero mods then a tune isn't necessary