Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras  

Go Back   Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras > Car Enthusiast Forums > Motorsports Chat

Motorsports Chat Autocross, rallycross, and track event planning, as well as general motorsport discussion.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2005-04-26, 02:00 PM   #1
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default Kevin... this is your fair warning.

Because you beat everyone but MikeK and Dean in PAX on Sunday, I will protest your DSP violations at the next event if they're not corrected.

1st, as you know, the ALK is illegal. If it's not replaced w/ a legal alternative or reverted back to stock, you need to register in Modified or Street Unlimited.

2nd, I believe the rear-diff-subframe locking bolts you have are illegal as well.
Quote:
15.8D. Differential mount bushings may be replaced, but must attach in the factory location(s) without additional modification or changes. Differential position may not be changed. The amount of metal in a replacement bushing may not be increased relative to the amount of metal found in a standard bushing for the particular application. Solid metal bushings are specifically prohibited.
The locking bolts effectively lock out the compliance of the subframe bushings.

3rd, I can't find anything that allows a lightened flywheel in the rules. The rules allow for a modified clutch, but the only thing I can find regarding lightened parts allows for lightened crank and accessory pulleys. I believe your lightened flywheel may be illegal.

Finally, you're also going to need to put your stock brakes back on, as SP rules only allow the replacement of the rotors if they're the same dimensions, and calipers aren't allowed to be replaced.

Quote:
13.6 BRAKES
A. The make and material of brake linings may be changed.
B. Substitution of clutch and brake hydraulic lines with solid metal or braided metal is allowed on all cars manufactured before model year 1992.
C. Alternate brake bleeder fittings such as “Speedbleeders” are permitted. They may serve no other purose.

15.6 BRAKES
Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.6 as specified herein.
A. Any brake line, single or dual master cylinder, vacuum brake booster, or brake proportioning valves may be used. This does not allow multiple separate cylinders, but does allow for any single, dual-circuit cylinder. “Safety brakers” and units such as the “Brake Guard System” are permitted. ABS braking systems may be disabled, but not removed; brake boosters may be removed or added. Air ducts may be fitted to the brakes, provided that they extend in a forward direction only, and that no changes are made in the body/structure for their use. They may serve no other purpose. Backing plates and dirt shields may be modified or removed.
B. Cross-drilled and/or slotted brake rotors may be used, provided the replacement rotors have the same dimensions as standard rotors and are of a standard-type construction and of ferrous metallic material. This does not permit the use of a two-piece hat/rotor assembly unless the standard configuration is two-piece.
I don't want to be a dick, but if you're going to be running competatively, you need to be legal. I'm a little miffed that you glossed over the ALK and brake violations and went to DSP right before the event w/o giving your competition time to check up on it. You specfically knew about the ALK issue and you knew the only reason people weren't going to protest you was because we all know how uncompetative you'd be in SM where you said you were going to run. The last minute switch to DSP reeks of un-sportsman like conduct to me.

So, fix your issues before WMCA or class your car properly.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 02:03 PM   #2
MikeK
Captain Turbo
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Reno
Posts: 3,318
 
Car: 05 STi
Default

Kevin, I will not be protesting you
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 02:59 PM   #3
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

This bothers me a great deal.

Kevin, unless I am mistaken, you led me to belive the only thing non-compliant was your ALK. A single item can be overlooked for a single event, but Scott's list is impressive if true.

To be honest, I beleive you should request that your weekend class be revised to whatever class these modifications are actually allowed.

Again, if true, your actions reflect poorly on yourself, and the SECCS group as a whole.
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:12 PM   #4
sybir
The Don
 
sybir's Avatar
 
Real Name: Aaron
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 3,097
 
Car: '97 Legacy / '05 FXT
Class: low
Default

That's seriously not cool, dude. I didn't know you reclassed, too.


Regarding the ALK, Kevin has asked me to obtain the offset bushings, which are, to my understanding legal, as they don't change the mounting points. He made the final decision yesterday, and, in fairness, has approached me a few times about a swap; I'll be ordering parts to remedy the ALK situation at least.

That still leaves the lock bolts (easy), brakes (easy), and flywheel (PITA).

I'd expect you to reflect better on the club than to run a car in a class where it's clearly against the letter and the spirit of the rules, and I'd hope you'd reflect better on the shop and your friends who stand behind you. I'd rather see you fight it out and really push the car to acheive decent times, rather than putting your friends in the position of not wanting to protest you as a friend, but feeling obligated to as both competitors and organizers. C'mon, man.
__________________
Tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

Last edited by sybir; 2005-04-26 at 03:15 PM.
sybir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:43 PM   #5
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Had I known the SP rules better, I would have brought all this up right when I saw the DSP switch. However, I assumed Kevin had done his homework about the rules so only the ALK was going to be an issue.

Since I figured the ALK was coming off soon, I didn't say anything, I figured the small advantage of the ALK isn't a big deal for one event. But then I got beat by .02 PAX seconds, which is certainly close enough to say "yeah that ALK could have been the difference".

So I went to lookup the rule to post a warning that I would protest the ALK next time. That's when I realized that much bigger things like the brakes and flywheel were illegal. Those make a significant difference in performance, and don't deserve to be overlooked by the competition.

The last thing I want to see in our region is a "rule nazi" mentality where we're having to nit pick each other's mods to make sure the competition is fair. That's a ton of work, and turns our normally friendly competition into a bitter war. Everyone, please make sure you're in line with the rules for your class!
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:51 PM   #6
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

First off guys, I honestly did not realize my brakes were illegal. I just didn't think to check that because they're STX legal. I'm gonna have to think long and hard about whether or not I'll take them off or stay in SM. I'd probably do it, except going back to stock rotors and calipers will pretty much make my car not trackworthy. Right now, I'm leaning towards staying in SM because of this.

The subframe locks may or may not be legal, but if I decide to stay in SP I'll take them out.

The flywheel is legal; discovering that it isn't illegal is what prompted my switch to SP in the first place. All along I had thought it wasn't. 15.10.N: "Any clutch assembly, metal flywheel, or metal torque converter... may be used." Reading that rule last week while researching SP for someone else is what made me think I could run there.

Regarding the ALK, I obviously knew full well it was illegal. However, as Aaron said, after discovering I was competitive, I took steps to get rid of it. I'll be getting rid of it regardless, because competitive or not I would one day like to be. I appreciate you all allowing me the luxury of running the one event weekend with it before seeing if I am competitive.

Since the combination of the ALK and 4 pots probably did give me an unfair competitive advantage, and I beat some of you by such a small margin, please reclass this weekend's results for me in TSM. I'll let you know in advance of Winnemucca if I'll be removing the brakes or not.

Again, all of you, I truly apologize for this. I had no intention of breaking rules. I'd rather get my ass kicked every week than cheat.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:52 PM   #7
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Okay, found more on the flywheel. I missed this part on my 1st read through.

Quote:
15.10.N. Any metal clutch assembly, metal flywheel or metal torque converter
that uses the standard attachment to the crankshaft may be
used. Non-metallic friction surfaces (e.g. clutch disks) are permitted.
Dowel pins may be added. Minor repositioning of the clutch
slave cylinder is allowed to accommodate the alternate clutch, but
the unit may not be relocated and the repositioning may serve no
other purpose. This allowance does not permit the substitution of
slave cylinders or the use of non-original methods of clutch actuation
(e.g. pull type versus push type).
Flywheel and clutch is cool.

Edit, Kevin you beat me to it.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:56 PM   #8
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

One last note... feeling happy on Sunday when Matt told me I finished 3rd in street tire doesn't compare to the horror and shame I felt when I realized I'd cheated. I'm really sorry guys.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:57 PM   #9
Nick Koan
JDM Cowboy
 
Nick Koan's Avatar
 
Real Name: Nick
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 8,642
 
Car: 2015 Mazda 3
Default

Good jorb Kevin. We'll set it straight. You seem willing to fix your errors, so I'll forgive you (esp. now that I think this means I beat you Saturday in PAX ).

As for the brakes, did I take your stock brakes? I guess you could find another set and then swap (if you decide to go that route).

Otherwise, lets make sure to look up any FastTracks. I've been hearing rumors that more mods are going to be allowed in SP classes, though I don't know if they pertain to your specific mods or not.
__________________
While a standard engine is powered by a belt connected to the crankshaft, a turbo engine runs on its own exhaust steam, making it more energy efficient. -- CNN
Nick Koan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 03:58 PM   #10
sybir
The Don
 
sybir's Avatar
 
Real Name: Aaron
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 3,097
 
Car: '97 Legacy / '05 FXT
Class: low
Default

Cool cool. I'm ordering the bushings, and I'll track down a set of RS/compatible control arm bushings/mounts so you can run something legal if the bushings take a while (which Whiteline seems to be doing lately )
__________________
Tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.

Last edited by sybir; 2005-04-26 at 04:08 PM.
sybir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 04:09 PM   #11
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nKoan
As for the brakes, did I take your stock brakes? I guess you could find another set and then swap (if you decide to go that route).
Yeah, I have WRX brakes in the garage that I got from you for my stocks. I'm currently talking to Aaron about getting hold of some calipers and brackets. I *might* be able to use the calipers and just find RS brackets and rotors, but I need to verify that pad and piston size are the same for each caliper. If I decide to run SP it won't be hard to get RS brakes. Plenty of people have replaced them in norcal.

And as stated before, ALK replacement was already in the works. Subframe locks will come out with the brakes if I go that route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nKoan
I've been hearing rumors that more mods are going to be allowed in SP classes, though I don't know if they pertain to your specific mods or not.
God dammit, there's another one. Steering rack bushings were ruled legal in ST and SP... as of 1/1/06.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 04:41 PM   #12
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Let's put your steering rack bushings in my car.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 04:42 PM   #13
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Actually, yeah sure. They're yours when I get them out.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 05:45 PM   #14
khail19
EJ205
 
Real Name: Khail
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,769
 
Car: 2016 VW GTI
 
Meets? We have meets?
Default

I'm fairly sure I have RS caliper brackets, but I know I tossed the rotors when I swapped. If you need them Kevin let me know and I'll dig around in my storage closet.
khail19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 06:50 PM   #15
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

This probably belongs in it's own "What class am I in" thread, but here is a site that distill the rulebook down fairly well...

http://www.sff.net/people/dburkhead/prepcompare.htm
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 06:57 PM   #16
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khail19
I'm fairly sure I have RS caliper brackets, but I know I tossed the rotors when I swapped. If you need them Kevin let me know and I'll dig around in my storage closet.
Well, I got confirmation that the WRX and RS calipers are the same (2 43mm pistons for each, same pad shape) so your brackets would help me a bunch. Can I pick them up from you tomorrow when I come for those rebate forms?
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 07:00 PM   #17
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
This probably belongs in it's own "What class am I in" thread, but here is a site that distill the rulebook down fairly well...

http://www.sff.net/people/dburkhead/prepcompare.htm
That is pretty cool. I'll look it over in more detail later for anything I might have missed again.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-26, 08:27 PM   #18
khail19
EJ205
 
Real Name: Khail
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,769
 
Car: 2016 VW GTI
 
Meets? We have meets?
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Well, I got confirmation that the WRX and RS calipers are the same (2 43mm pistons for each, same pad shape) so your brackets would help me a bunch. Can I pick them up from you tomorrow when I come for those rebate forms?
I'll be at a training class in Rocklin all day tomorrow, but I'll dig them out and you can grab them Thursday or Friday. Well, if I can find them, that is.
khail19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-27, 08:08 PM   #19
khail19
EJ205
 
Real Name: Khail
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,769
 
Car: 2016 VW GTI
 
Meets? We have meets?
Default

Well, the brackets aren't going to do you any good after all. My car came with the newer style bracket and pads that the 03 and up WRX came with. I swapped them for older 02 WRX brackets so I could use the D721 pad (same as the GC 2.5RS) with the bigger diameter WRX rotors. The old brackets I have take a D929 pad, which isn't really available in anything but OEM type pads. Sorry, I didn't think about that earlier. The whole reason I swapped was for better pad selection, being able to use WRX rotors was just an added benefit.
khail19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-27, 08:41 PM   #20
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Bummer. Luckily I think there's an RS guy in Sac I can snag some brackets from. He just did a WRX brake swap at Subaru Specialists.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-28, 08:32 AM   #21
doubleurx
EJ205
 
doubleurx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Truckee
Posts: 1,948
Default

So can I run in DSP since I've never done it before. I think I'm close to stock?
doubleurx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-28, 08:59 AM   #22
MikeK
Captain Turbo
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Reno
Posts: 3,318
 
Car: 05 STi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
So can I run in DSP since I've never done it before. I think I'm close to stock?
.
Attached Images
 
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-28, 09:01 AM   #23
doubleurx
EJ205
 
doubleurx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Truckee
Posts: 1,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK
.

Ah c'mon Mr. Peabody, let's just get back in the way back machine to when it was stock!
doubleurx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-28, 09:07 AM   #24
SlickNick112
EJ251
 
SlickNick112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 603
 
Car: '06 Impreza WRX STi
Class: Out of class!
 
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal. People know me.
Default

Kevin, I still have my stock rotors. All four, I'm sure they're still in pretty good shape. let me know.

nick
__________________
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. "
~Frank Sinatra
SlickNick112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2005-04-28, 11:33 AM   #25
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
So can I run in DSP since I've never done it before. I think I'm close to stock?
Well, you only have 2 illegal ESP mods, so...
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Free Admission Tickets to State Fair ArthurS Off Topic Chat 2 2006-08-25 12:41 PM
Kevin is a... sperry Off Topic Chat 4 2004-07-13 01:47 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All Content Copyright Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras unless otherwise noted.