Let's buy lap timers. Discuss.

[MattR]

So, I want a lap timing set up for the track. (JCW Mini) Victor and I were talking about them at the track on Saturday, and I think it would be a good move. Anyone have any good suggestions?

[sperry]

Isn't the Longacre Hot Lap system pretty much the defacto standard for HPDE timing? They're about $250 for a transmitter/receiver pair, but I think the club might be able to share one transmitter for track days and we can just buy our own receivers for $190 each.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/hotlap.htm

I'm not sure there isn't something better out there... this stuff has been around for a while... but at the same time, these are so popular, if you go to an event w/o the transmitter, there's still a good chance someone else would have one setup track side already!

[MattR]

Yeah, that's the one we were talking about. I want to make sure and have in car real time lap display, I think that one does. I believe there are a few of us who would be in to share the transmitter purchase, that's a great idea, then you can manage your reciever and save some $$$...

[sperry]

I think if we're gonna go w/ the Longacre system, one of us should get the full kit w/ the long range transmitter and the club can reimburse 'em for difference between the reciever only price and the full kit price.

Then we find the cheapest/smallest dry cell 12V battery we can and a tripod. Use the battery as a weight for the transmitter/tripod via a bungee cord so it can stand up to the wind at RFR, as well as power the transmitter for days and days.

[Pat R.]

This one looks pretty good: http://www.plavanracing.com/ultralapindex.htm

[MattR]

That one has some additional features and looks good, but what does it cost?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

That one has some additional features and looks good, but what does it cost?

Looks like $250 gets you the system including a transmitter. Not a bad setup, but how popular is that deal? And how well does it work?

The Longacre setup is a known entity, and very popular. We should probably do some research over at corner-carvers.

Edit: after reading that UltraLap website some more, I'm pretty impressed. Assuming it works well I may go with one of those... I really like the features that it has over the HotLap deal from Longacre, at basically the same price. Just the ability to download lap times to the PC is awesome... then you can easily pull lap times up to compare to in-car video.

[Pat R.]

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26399

[sperry]

Nice Pat.

That thread raises a good point... what about GPS based lap timers? It would be awesome to have a system that doesn't need a track-side transmitter.

What's this thing: http://www.traqmate.com/

Edit: That traqmate thing is tits, but it's like $1000!

[MikeK]

I am in for a receiver and a share of a transmitter for sure. Bragging rights at track days!!1!

[Dean]

What are you trying to accomplish? What do you hope to gain by timing your laps? Personally, on the track, I judge my performance by line and consistancy.

What are the insurance implications of doing so? Most if not all policies are void if timing is involved. Timing is forbidden at Audi events for just that reason.

My biggest issue is what do they tell you? If one lap is .1 seconds faster what does that tell you? I don't think I am a good enough driver to be able to tell you in which of the 573 motions I made during that lap which one caused that .1 seconds.

I'd probably get one of the acclerometer based ones where I can actually tell where something was different.

I realize some people are just concerned with how fast they are, but that just isn't me at the track. Now at autocross....

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

What are you trying to accomplish?

Well, when you try something new, or take a different line, what's the harm in seeing if it actually improved or hurt your lap time? I can tell when something feels faster based on the car's behavior, but the timer is for fun, and a good way to gauge performance of both driver and car.
Remember.... You don't have to get one.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Dean

SNIP

Nobody let Dean use the transmitter

[sperry]

Well Dean, it might not be a MoTeC or DL1 or a $40,000 Pi system, but if you can't see the advantage of something like this, you're blind!



Lap timers tell you when you're faster, data aquisition systems tell you why you're faster. The problem is that Daq's cost about 5 times simple lap timers... so you get what you can afford. However, I'm so impressed by the results of that Traqmate system, I'm thinking the extra $800 for it might be worth it, over just grabbing a hot lap timer. But at the same time, if you try a new line, and you're 2 seconds faster, chances are you just found your new line... a simple lap timer does help.

Also, I don't think anyone in the thread so far is under the impression they're covered by insurance on track. I know if the WRX gets wadded up, it's getting trailer'd home and salvaged into a new shell.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

Well, when you try something new, or take a different line, what's the harm in seeing if it actually improved or hurt your lap time? I can tell when something feels faster based on the car's behavior, but the timer is for fun, and a good way to gauge performance of both driver and car.
Remember.... You don't have to get one.

Hey, the thread title says Discuss, just trying to bring up an alternate view.

They are fun, but they can also be dangerous. I am aware of a number of incidents where cars and people where damaged trying to beat somebody else's lap time. Heck, we see it regularly at autocross, but the only damage is to cones, and egos. At Club Trials, the damage escalates to fender covers, fog lights, etc... At the track, it can be far worse, and few if any of us have all the safety equipment we probably should for the speeds we are traveling.

And with regard to changing something to see if it is faster, I'd be hard pressed to drive only one thing different on a given lap, but perhaps that is just me.

If you want to know your lap times, look at your in car footage when you get home from the comfort of your couch, and analyze why by looking at the footage, or get the right safety equipment and then do it at the track.

That's my $.02 contribution to the discussion.

[Dean]

I do see/know the value, and said I would want one of the accelerometer based ones in my first post in this thread, and have previously threatedend to buy a G-tech pro which as I recal was met with much skepticism, though that was at least partially tuning related. Now all of a sudden lap timers and accelerometers have value. Hmmm.

Assuming everyone is aware of their insurance status is not a valid assumption. I know you know, but not everyone on the board does necessarily. I wonder if Cody did before his off at RFR?

I'm just trying to bring another point of view to the discussion.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I do see/know the value, and said I would want one of the accelerometer based ones in my first post in this thread, and have previously threatedend to buy a G-tech pro which as I recal was met with much skepticism, though that was at least partially tuning related. Now all of a sudden lap timers and accelerometers have value. Hmmm.

Assuming everyone is aware of their insurance status is not a valid assumption. I know you know, but not everyone on the board does necessarily. I wonder if Cody did before his off at RFR?

I'm just trying to bring another point of view to the discussion.

You wanted a G-Tech Pro for tuning, a task for which it's barely useful at best. However, if you want to talk about the G-Tech Pro RR datalogger as something to help lap times and evaluate driving technique, well that's a different thing entirely. 'Course, I think there are still better tools out there for that task than G-Tech's offering, but I'm just getting into the research for these things. What I've noticed is, accelerometers alone don't really work, as there's too much noise from vibration and not enough accuracy. But couple it with wheel-speed indicators and a start/finish transmitter, or 5+hz GPS sampling, and you've got a useful tool, for far cheaper than the professional telemetry systems.

And, I didn't assume that "everyone is aware of their insurance status", I said that everyone in this thread understands the implications of using a lap timer. i.e. we're not discussing insurance, we're discussing lap timers and daqs. I couldn't care less what Cody thinks about his insurance coverage at RFR because it's got zero bearing on what lap timers are better than others. Give me one reason why the DL-1 is better than the Traqmate that involves Cody and State Farm.

How about contributing some tech towards the topic? I have to imagine with your involvement in motorsports and HPDE's you've got to have more insight into this discussion than "yer all gonna crash your cars". What have you seen in use? What's the talk around the campfire?

I'm interested primarily in driver improvement. I want to go faster and drive better, and I want to quantify my improvement. It's easy in autocross, there are lap times and trophies, and laps are short with long breaks inbetween so I can directly corellate fast lap times with my recollection of the run. That's not something I can do on track, even with in-car footage.

It takes almost as long as the footage itself just to compile a list of lap times, and it's tedious work. And I still can't reliably tell by in-car alone which lap I carried the most speed through turn 12 in, for example. A daq tells me that at a glance. With recorded telemetry, I can see where and when I was braking too soon/late, I can see where I was slacking, and I can see where I wasn't smooth. I can complile my best sector times and see what my theoretical best lap looks like. And given the right inputs, I can even see where the car needs help setup-wise, even though that's not my primary use for something like this. Finally, something like the Traqmate is easily tossed into someone else's car, providing a way to directly compare laps with another driver. I'd really like to see why Matt's 5 mph faster down the back stretch that I am, or why my line tends to hit the apex more reliably, or why Mike's brakes are faded more than the rest of us. Since we all drive very similar cars, having overlaid lap data could be a boon for figuring out what line works, or what tires are best, or how hard you really can brake for T5... etc.

The bottom line is, I need a tool with which to self-evaluate my on track performance that's better than "well, that lap felt pretty good". I've logged tens of thousands of hours over the last 13 years in computer driving simulators, and all of 'em have had a lap timer (if not a full blown telemetry viewer as well). I'm used to having that feedback as a tool for improving my performance, and it's something I'd like to have access to in the real world as well.

[qksubi]

If I do get one I do not want to see my lap time as I'm driving I know how I am I will push my self too far and have a car full of dirt at best But really do want to know what kind of laptmes I'm throwing down when I paid a shit load of money for a track day/ weekend I want to see my improvments but 799 for GPS one Im not down for that. I think the ultra lap timer is the way to go it gives track temps that is sweet! I like it but Im going to hide that thing so I cant see it

[Kevin M]

Everybody's making good points, from the perspective they've chosen. I believe Dean is taking the stance of protecting inexperienced track drivers from chasing lap times before that's something worth doing, and mentioning the safety and liability issues invlolved.

However, Scott, MAtt, and a handful of others on the board, including Dean, can certainly benefit from the presence of lap timers or daqs. Additionally, those drivers are not putting themselves at any more risk financially or physically than they already are. Like Dean said- the drivers who would be permitted to be part of the lap timer group buy are going faster than race cars in most grassroots-level series anyway. The quantified data from one of these timing systems will allow such drivers to continue to improve their skills without having to guess at whether or not they are actually getting better, either with consistency or with accuracy on a given lap.

I expressed interest to Matt about being included in the buy-in on a transmitter because being able to time my laps may help me to become consistent, which I need to do before bothering trying to use lap data to actually find the best line or whatnot. I still can't run a given lap even close to the same way in every corner, but once I get down to only making one or two major mistakes per lap the data will begin to be more useful to me.

Anyways, the club has evolved to where one of its primary interests is individual driver improvement beyond just improved skill and judgement behind the wheel that autocross can bring. As some members are getting quite skilled out on the track, I don't think it's irresponsible of them to use tools such as lap timers to continue to improve, even though it does draw us out further from the legal and financial protections we may or may not have by not using them. While it isn't really incumbent on the club or its members to protect others from themselves, novice drivers who shouldn't participate (yet) in timing and data acquisition would be informed of why, but left to make their own decisions. Scott's last few lines best illustrate the need and justification for some members of SECCS to use these tools.

As Dean pointed out, timing can potentially bring about the competition factors which I've also warned against in other threads on other topics. But at an HPDE, I don't think comparing lap times is any more potentially hazardous than a slow driver in a fast car attempting to follow a faster driver. For example, if another STi owner with a few events under his belt and a car similar to Matt, Mike or Eric shows up with a lap timer, and he's 8 seconds slower than they are but fairly consistent, they can easily show him the exact places where he can brake later, carry more speed through, etc. He wouldn't necessarily make the proper adjustments without being able to compare specific notes like that. I don't think the ability to discuss the differences in his lap and theirs off-track is nearly as hazardous as simply attempting follow them and duplicate their lines if he doesn't have the skill yet.

Ehh...
Cliff notes: Lap timers don't crash cars. People crash cars.

[qksubi]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Ehh...
Cliff notes: Lap timers don't crash cars. People crash cars.

I'm blaiming my right foot thats connected to my ego!!

[Dean]

OK, I'm done with my safety piece after this last comment: Is going faster more important than your life? If it isn't, get a cage, seats, harnesses, fire system, and proper clothes before you get a lap timer. People DIE trying to go faster!

Eric's idea is an OK compromise, though I wouldn't look at them until you got home. Even between run groups, the red haze can set in. Go to a Nasa event, the haze is everywhere, and cars get wrecked and people get hurt.

Damn, I thought I was done. I promise to chime in on a tech perspective on my next post. Gotta run right now.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

What's this thing: http://www.traqmate.com/

Edit: That traqmate thing is tits, but it's like $1000!

That looks sweet! I could spend endless hours fiddling with that thing...

[dknv]

I would suggest approaching an in-car lap timer from the perspective that it's for fun, subject to a plus or minus x margin of error.

Faster lap times are not necessarily due to improved driver skill. Faster could be because you've done more laps and now you're more familiar with the course; or something on the car is working better / tire temps / brake pads, etc.; maybe it's due to track surface conditions; traffic.

But yeah, I do see the value in it for comparing how you thought a lap felt, with actual data. When I drove at RFR in Jim G's rx7, we were using a stopwatch, and it was interesting to know what my improvement was lap over lap. His rx7 is also race-prepped, and we did not have insurance risk re: timed laps.

What could be entertaining, is if this is a group buy - how will drivers divide time to use it?

[cody]

Originally Posted by Dean

Assuming everyone is aware of their insurance status is not a valid assumption. I know you know, but not everyone on the board does necessarily. I wonder if Cody did before his off at RFR?

I know that driving onto a track is like driving into Mexico. Your normal car insurance is void.

However, the form you fill out to join the SCCA does say one of the benefits is, "Free Participant Accident insurance while participating in
SCCA activities." What does that mean exactly?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I know that driving onto a track is like driving into Mexico. Your normal car insurance is void.

However, the form you fill out to join the SCCA does say one of the benefits is, "Free Participant Accident insurance while participating in
SCCA activities." What does that mean exactly?

It means if you kill/injure someone, SCCA's insurance policy will shield you from financial responsiblity, at least partially.

Back to the pseudo-topic... I'm not looking for competition, and I'm not looking for a tool to push myself. I'm looking for data to make me a better driver. I don't plan on trying to just push harder or deeper into a corner 'cause I think I can shave off a tenth... I want sector times and acceleration data that suggests I'm slacking somewhere. Then use that data the next time out to get more from the driver.

I'm seriously considering one of those Traqmate setups... I just need to save up some cash for it. Hell, you can even get it w/o a display unit, so you won't even have lap times until you get home and plug it into the computer... though, I'd like to use the DU 'cause it's also a USB flash drive for downloading your session times, allowing for a more permanent installation of the accelerometer/GPS.

You think anyone would be interested in buying my V1? I'll trade that in for cash towards a DAQ... esp. considering the V1 works for shit in the SVX.