The UnOfficial UnSticky 2008 NASCAR Thread!

[Dean]

Welcome to the 2008 season and Speed Weeks at Daytona!!!

We start with the Shootout tonight, or perhaps we started last night with practice when the 2 and 20 started the season out right with some extracurricular activities. "What happens in the big red truck stays in the big red truck."

The COT is now the Car of Today; shut up and drive it. More than one of the cars (16,48,24,?) running in the shootout is a "short track" car... We will see if the COT has eliminated that terminology.

Jr. is in a green AMP or blue National Guard 88 car. Not sure I'll get used to that, but he can now focus just on driving, not on all the DEI BS. Mark Martin in a black number 8 and the Budweiser is #9... I'm so confused.

The Indy invasion... Is it 4 or 5 Former Indy 500 champions now driving NASCAR? The real challenge is for the predominantly "Good Old Boy" announcers to pronounce their names.

Toyota has come to play!

It should be an interesting season.

Discuss!

[tysonK]

At the break table at work:

Everyone at the table *bitching about how stupid NASCAR is*

Me: "Yeah it's easy to make fun of something when you don't understand it"

*silence*

[Dean]

The Shootout and Duels were great. 2+ wide racing all the way around the track. You can really tell who has figured out the new car and who hasn't. The fast cars are nice and smooth, absorbing the bumps, others are all over teh place bouncing off the bump stops.

They really have to drive the new cars and the larger restrictor plate lets them use the throttle to control the car rather than just welding it to the floor.

Jr. has already shown his new stripes. Take that Teresa... SNAP!

Tonight is trucks, Nationwide(formerly Busch) Sat. and Cup Sunday.

Should be a good weekend.

[Kevin M]

Okay seriously... some of the teams, like Hendrick, can't figure out how to keep a stock car off the bumpstops? They aren't making it easy to give Nascar any credit for knowing a damn thing about "real" racing, are they? Heaven forbid they ever try to go to fuel injection...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Okay seriously... some of the teams, like Hendrick, can't figure out how to keep a stock car off the bumpstops? They aren't making it easy to give Nascar any credit for knowing a damn thing about "real" racing, are they? Heaven forbid they ever try to go to fuel injection...

I bet the car is faster on the bump stops than off. It just doesn't last the race distance.

Remember, this is the sport where the teams would run unsafely soft rear spring to get the mandated rear spoilers out of the airstream until NASCAR mandated the rear springs at restrictor races too. Now Hendrick Motorsports is gonna bitch that the COT isn't safe as designed, and force NASCAR to redesign the front suspension rather than just raise their front ride-height to keep it off the stops, or better yet, be allowed to innovate and design their own car.

NASCAR might as well just become a spec series. It would go along with the "debris" cautions and coin flip finishes. Really, after watching today's race, I think NASCAR has lots its soul... they showed all those fantastic racing moments over the years back when the sport was a real sport and could be dominated by great drivers and teams. Then I watched a race where there was so much parity that cars could go last to first then back to last in 30 laps.

I know the NASCAR fans love the passing, but it's so manufactured by ridiculous rules, forced cautions, mandated equipment... I won't say that it's "fixed" like wrestling, but it might as well be, since on any day, anyone can win the Daytona 500, regardless of team preparation or driver talent. All you gotta do is get in the race (which is hard to do because of the retarded "past champion's provision" bullshit). I'm not saying that Newman didn't deserve the win, but he didn't really earn it more than by just being in the right place at the right time.

Give my Sato making a late race pass over Alonso for points any day. That one pass was more exciting than the sum of all the passes in this year's Daytona 500.

[Kevin M]

I'm all for a certain level of tiered competition in the series. A reduction in the size of the field would be nice too. Then again, if they could field a full grid of teams and drivers that are more than average at right turns, I might pay enough attention to be better able to really criticize the series.

[Dean]

To each his own. The fact that more than 2 teams and 4 drivers can win, that you have to compete to even make the race and that there is more than one pass for the lead per race makes the series a whole lot more interesting than F1 IMHO.

Feel free to start your own F1 thread.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

To each his own. The fact that more than 2 teams and 4 drivers can win, that you have to compete to even make the race and that there is more than one pass for the lead per race makes the series a whole lot more interesting than F1 IMHO.

Feel free to start your own F1 thread.

I don't think NASCAR is bad racing because it's different than F1. I think it's bad because it could be so much better at what it tries to be.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

To each his own. The fact that more than 2 teams and 4 drivers can win, that you have to compete to even make the race and that there is more than one pass for the lead per race makes the series a whole lot more interesting than F1 IMHO.

Feel free to start your own F1 thread.

What's better? Two teams and 4 drivers battling it out for the season (we can get to the fact that F1's got more parity this season than it's had in decades later), or 10 teams rolling a D43 to see who gets to win the biggest race of the season?

I'm not knocking NASCAR for having too much parity... I'm knocking it for the parity being manufactured by series rules more than anything else. There aren't a bunch of teams out there that can win, there are a bunch of teams out there being propped up so they can win.

Maybe it's just that I haven't been watching a lot of NASCAR the last season or 5... but I tuned in to the race today, and it turned me off. Maybe it's just that restrictor racing's issues are just more obvious with the new car (though everyone was claiming it made the racing so much better?), or just because the teams are all still learning the new car... all I know is that the race I watched looked like 90% of what it takes to win is lucking out to be in the right line that happens to be going to the front at the end of the race.

Good racing shouldn't be qualified by the number of lead changes, or the amount of time the field spends side-by-side. It should be qualified by watching the drivers do amazing things at amazing speeds, and by out smarting the guy on the track, or when a crew chief makes a ballsy call and it pays off. F1's certainly not the "best racing"... the Daytona Prototypes, or Speed WC cars, or the ALMS GT cars... that's good racing. Hell, even a nice close ASP battle is more entertaining than the Daytona 500 was this year.

/jaded

[Dean]

I disagree with both of you, but don't really want to have this discussion for the umpenth time. You like F1 and I and others like NASCAR. If you honestly think yesterdays race was determined by luck, great for you. I saw strategy, teamwork, competition and skill.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

I disagree with both of you, but don't really want to have this discussion for the umpenth time. You like F1 and I and others like NASCAR. If you honestly think yesterdays race was determined by luck, great for you. I saw strategy, teamwork, competition and skill.

I have to agree entirely with Dean, I really enjoyed the race, there was a lot going on that carried over from the week's preliminary races too. Interesting to me was the fact that the Dodge cars flew under the radar all week, while the media focused on the "overpowered" Toyotas and Dale Jr...Then, comes raceday, and ther are 6 Dodges in the top 8! (Including my man Robby Gordon ). I embrace the fact that Cup is pretty much a spec series now, and I enjoy the racing. The teams that finish in the top 10 are working hard to outpace the other 33 cars, it's not just luck. Daytona is not the test of what the series is, the restrictor plates still change the racing a lot. Watch the race next week at Fontana and we'll see what's in store. I like ALL racing, I can appreciate the differences in all the series.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I disagree with both of you, but don't really want to have this discussion for the umpenth time. You like F1 and I and others like NASCAR. If you honestly think yesterdays race was determined by luck, great for you. I saw strategy, teamwork, competition and skill.

I wasn't really trying to rehash the F1 vs. NASCAR thing. I know F1's got it's own set of issues, it's really the opposite extreme of NASCAR. My point was that watching the Daytona race, I just didn't see racing. Ten years ago, I was a huge NASCAR fan... and while the restrictor racing had a large element of luck to it back then, you would consistently see the same few people who were artists in draft that would take the wins. Newman's win came because he lucked out to be at the head of the line with the #2 car there to push him. Kurt Busch even said after the race his strategy wasn't to help out his teammate specifically, he was just going to push Newman if he ending up in front. I didn't see anything during the rest of the race that would indicate the 12 car deserved the win.

I guess my point is that there was a ton of hype about the new car and the more open restrictor that was supposed to bring back the old Daytona. I just didn't see it. I saw a spectacle, not a race (very impressive that gopher cam). I saw cars that were too equal and too limited, to the point where driver skill wasn't a factor outside of whether or not they could keep from crashing into each other... i.e. the cars all looked at 8/10s the whole way around, ensuring that even the crappiest drivers had a chance to be at the front. Sure there were a few good saves, and some not so good saves, but all in all, it just felt manufactured. Especially the debris cautions that magically occurred whenever the cars got strung out (which NASCAR has been notorious about doing for years). Someone should tell FOX that they ought to put the debris on camera every time there's a caution for it. It would help the credibility of the event.

I guess I'm mostly just disappointed because I had high hopes for the new season, but it turned out to be just more of the same, IMO. I'm not trying to knock anyone for liking NASCAR, I'm just not seeing the attraction to it myself anymore. Maybe Cali will be better, but that race tends to be one of the more boring ones of the season, IMO. Unless Mikey's on fire and climbing out the roof or something.

I'll likely tune in for Bristol, Sears Point, and the Glen this season. Bristol's all about luck too, but at least it's never boring, and the road courses let driver talent show through.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

I have to agree entirely with Dean, I really enjoyed the race, there was a lot going on that carried over from the week's preliminary races too. Interesting to me was the fact that the Dodge cars flew under the radar all week, while the media focused on the "overpowered" Toyotas and Dale Jr...Then, comes raceday, and ther are 6 Dodges in the top 8! (Including my man Robby Gordon ). I embrace the fact that Cup is pretty much a spec series now, and I enjoy the racing. The teams that finish in the top 10 are working hard to outpace the other 33 cars, it's not just luck. Daytona is not the test of what the series is, the restrictor plates still change the racing a lot. Watch the race next week at Fontana and we'll see what's in store. I like ALL racing, I can appreciate the differences in all the series.

The biggest thing that's bothering me is that if NASCAR is "basically a spec series" these days, why doesn't it act like a spec series? i.e. In a spec series, the point is the drivers, and the best driver should be winning. Do you think Ryan Newman is the best driver in NASCAR? Of those top 10 cars at the end of the race, did he really shine as the guy that earned the winning spot at the finish?

IMO, the race should have been won by Kyle or Kurt Busch, Tony Stewart, or even Kahne or Junior. Hell even Bowyer was putting in a nice drive until JPM punted him. I dunno, maybe Ryan Newman is just invisible to me, but I didn't see him doing much all race long other than just waiting out the laps in the draft, then suddenly he's the winner. If that's the proper winning strategy, then NASCAR's lost its mo-jo.

[Dean]

Winning has always been about being in the front when the checkered flag flies.

Staying out of trouble and keeping your car in one piece with something left at the finish is a winning strategyband has been for many years in NASCAR.

And Ryan Newman was 13th last year, just out of "the chase", so yes, I do think he deserved to be in the front at the end. His team /pit crew made some good choices to put him near the front at the end of the race, and he drove to the front. Did he get pushed, yes, but that is restrictor plate/drafting racing, and that is how you move, being in the right line in front of the right other cars.

Mo-Jo? Whatever...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Okay seriously... some of the teams, like Hendrick, can't figure out how to keep a stock car off the bumpstops? They aren't making it easy to give Nascar any credit for knowing a damn thing about "real" racing, are they? Heaven forbid they ever try to go to fuel injection...

Those teams know perfectly well how to keep a car off the bumpstops, if they want to. The Grand National days of yokels building a car out in the barn are decades since over.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

The fact that... you have to compete to even make the race ...

I would disagree with that statement, since most of the starting grid is now guaranteed to cars with existing owner points. Only the last few spots on grid are truly open and available to outsiders looking to make it in the race on qualifying time. In my opinion that is the single worst rule NASCAR has ever established.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I would disagree with that statement, since most of the starting grid is now guaranteed to cars with existing owner points. Only the last few spots on grid are truly open and available to outsiders looking to make it in the race on qualifying time. In my opinion that is the single worst rule NASCAR has ever established.

I agree with you. At least there are 7-8 places up for grabs. I'd cut it to only the top 12 are locked in since that is how they determine the Chase.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I agree with you. At least there are 7-8 places up for grabs. I'd cut it to only the top 12 are locked in since that is how they determine the Chase.

NASCAR could always charge each team to allow them to be one of just 11 bound by contract to race the whole season or be fined more than it would cost to run the season to begin with.

Those 7 or 8 slots are actually quite generous.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Or, they could just have everyone who shows up to the track run a lap or two, time those laps, and...

...wait for it...

...not yet...

...determine the starting grid by sorting all the cars from fastest to slowest! And anyone who falls outside of the predetermined starting grid size goes home! OMG! What a fucking concept!

I am goddamned brilliant. I should get paid to think of these things.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Or, they could just have everyone who shows up to the track run a lap or two, time those laps, and...

...wait for it...

...not yet...

...determine the starting grid by sorting all the cars from fastest to slowest! And anyone who falls outside of the predetermined starting grid size goes home! OMG! What a fucking concept!

I am goddamned brilliant. I should get paid to think of these things.

Remember, NASCAR is a business first and a sport second. You can't have just a bunch of random people showing up with their Daytona specials knocking out all the known teams and drivers. If they did what you're suggesting, Daytona would turn into what the Indy 500 race used to be: a yearly run-what-you-brung race to see who's the fastest on that particular day.

Actually, that sounds cool.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Or, they could just have everyone who shows up to the track run a lap or two, time those laps, and...

...wait for it...

...not yet...

...determine the starting grid by sorting all the cars from fastest to slowest! And anyone who falls outside of the predetermined starting grid size goes home! OMG! What a fucking concept!

I am goddamned brilliant. I should get paid to think of these things.

This would never work as it does not involve the use of psychics or psychedelics.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Those teams know perfectly well how to keep a car off the bumpstops, if they want to. The Grand National days of yokels building a car out in the barn are decades since over.

Of course. And yet, by choice from either Nascar's rules or poor strategy, teams are driving half-million dollar cars around racetracks on the bumpstops. If that's really the fastest setup, something's wrong with the system. You shouldn't have to make the car so hard to drive to have a chance of winning.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Of course. And yet, by choice from either Nascar's rules or poor strategy, teams are driving half-million dollar cars around racetracks on the bumpstops. If that's really the fastest setup, something's wrong with the system. You shouldn't have to make the car so hard to drive to have a chance of winning.

What are you suggesting? NASCAR mandates "no driving on the bumpstops"? Or are they going to have to go back to mandated spring rates?

The problem exists *because* they've mandated so much about the car. Within those rules, driving on the bumpstops is the fastest way around the track, but it also causes the car to fail. Jeff Gordon and crew were bitching that the mandated car isn't "strong enough" to handle the fastest setup.

I'm not sure who the bigger dolt is in that situation, NASCAR for mandating a car design that breaks when driven on the bumpstops (or that's fastest when on the bumpstops) or the teams for running a setup that they knew probably wouldn't finish the race and whining that it's NASCAR's fault.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

The problem exists *because* they've mandated so much about the car. Within those rules, driving on the bumpstops is the fastest way around the track, but it also causes the car to fail. Jeff Gordon and crew were bitching that the mandated car isn't "strong enough" to handle the fastest setup.

I'm not sure who the bigger dolt is in that situation, NASCAR for mandating a car design that breaks when driven on the bumpstops (or that's fastest when on the bumpstops) or the teams for running a setup that they knew probably wouldn't finish the race and whining that it's NASCAR's fault.

That's kind of my point. Why are the rules coming together to create a requirement for running such difficult/dangerous in order to be fast enough to win? What is it about the restrictions that prevents a properly sprung suspension from being competitive? I understand the difference between what they ran being necessary, and that setup being considered ideal. But like Austin said, these aren't backwoods yokels- so if these professional race car engineers are forced to resort to such a poor setup, the rules are broken.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

That's kind of my point. Why are the rules coming together to create a requirement for running such difficult/dangerous in order to be fast enough to win? What is it about the restrictions that prevents a properly sprung suspension from being competitive? I understand the difference between what they ran being necessary, and that setup being considered ideal. But like Austin said, these aren't backwoods yokels- so if these professional race car engineers are forced to resort to such a poor setup, the rules are broken.

My guess is that NASCAR designed the COT and tested it without seeing what happened when you put a bumpy race distance on bumpstops on the suspension. Meanwhile, running the car as low as possible (i.e. on the bumpstops) is aerodynamically the fastest way around Daytona because aero grossly out weights handling there as far as lap times are concerned, so the teams are just slamming the car as low as geometrically possible with soft springs.

NASCAR won't want to extend the suspension's throw because teams will just lower the car even more thus making them more slippery and undoing some of the progress made in lack of competitiveness as restrictor plate tracks. Plus, if they go too low, we're back with cars that bottom out in every corner. Last time we had that situation, NASCAR started raising spoilers, fixing ride heights, fixing spring rates, etc. All that crap was supposed to be solved by the COT.

The only alternative is to reinforce the suspension so it survives a race on the bumpstops and/or mandate springs at restrictor plate tracks, which is counter to the whole point of the COT as far as I thought.