New to autocross...

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Actually, their springs were too stiff, and the new tires too sticky. The car's high CG toppeled it over in the 1st corner because there was no give in the suspension to slow the moment that turned it over. Luckily it was a fully caged track car, and no one was hurt. But it did total the car.

Where is Todd when you need him? I'm pretty sure they were totally used up stock struts/springs and providing almost no damping.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Where is Todd when you need him? I'm pretty sure they were totally used up stock struts/springs and providing almost no damping.

So the car just bounced over?

I heard that the car was basically driving "without suspension", which to me meant the car was so stiff, it was like a kart... not "the struts are so blown they might as well not be on the car".

*boioioioiooing!*

[A1337STI]

okay okay probably a dumb question, i've never tried this in RL, just in my racing sim (toca race driver was made by using actual telimitry data from cars right after / during races) it's meant to be realistic , etc, etc,

anyways in the racing sim in the STI at speeds of over about 40 -50+ if you give a very hard steering input ( say 1 wheel crank ) and pull the ebrake the car seems to slide rather nicely (slowly spinning, slides, bleeding speed) then you can drop it into 1st and take control of the slide (there are Certain corners where this technique is of any value, as any corner that you want to take at over 40, i found this to be less then ideal in the simulator) the physics behind it seems fairly solid but i dunno about trying this in my real car. (some things are best left in video games only )

the sti has a low enough Center of Gravity that if you are sideways on tarmac say 40 + and sideways, are you going to slide flat ? or roll over like that toyota er what ever ?

(might like to try that type of an Ebrake - tarmac slide out if i have enough room to do so with out worry of damage, plus it has to KILL your tires eh? flat spots maybe ? )

[Dean]

You are unlikely to flip an Impreza, even on stock suspension on smooth tarmac. There just isn't enough traction with the tires.

E-Brake turns are much harder in real life to execute well.

[Nick Koan]

It would be very hard for the STi to start a traction roll unless it was going really fast (I'd say 50-60+, but I don't exactly recomend trying to find the MPH where you can start a traction roll), or you run into a sudden drop off or curb.

[A1337STI]

I was thinking on the lines of the same (that the sti won't just roll over / flip) if i started one . But i'm also thinking repairs are expensive, tires aren't even that cheap probably best not to attempt that until i have a perfect opputunity. (endless tarmac, tires i can thrash, and instruction from peeps who know a lot more then me) . i have no clue if there will even be any turns were a slide would any faster then a traditional turning techinque. (in my sim a slide only seems to help on severe Tight 90 degree type turns, or turns that are greator then 90 degrees after a long straight away) and its easy to mis judge and over slide and crash (in game that's a reset, in real life ... lol some things are best kept in game) but if anyone can show me a controled one, i'll be mighty impressed. (and maybe taking notes)
lol arg is it april yet ? (first time that i've been excited for spring/summer, i'm a snowboarder)

[Dean]

They are pretty easy in low traction situation. Go find a snowy, icy parking lot.

I played around with them during the last snow. The trick is to remember all you are trying to do is break the rear traction, not lock up the rear wheels.

A little Scandinavian Flick helps initiate it as well.

[sperry]

First of all, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being your generic arcade racer, 10 being real life, Toca is about a 4 on the realism scale. GT4 is also about a 4. GTR, GT-Legends, rFactor, are about 7's. I wouldn't take anything from the "fringe" aspects of a racing simulator as a way to practice or try out new driving techniques.

Second, in real life, with modern tire and suspension technology, you will *never* be faster on tarmac e-brake sliding the car that you would be driving with grip. Even those fancy rally drivers that like to e-brake turn 1st gear hairpins are probably not going any faster than they would by just driving the corner with a proper apex. Sliding would only be faster in a corner that would require a 3 point turn otherwise.

Finally... if you're just getting into racing, concentrate on the basics. There's no need to complicate things by trying to drift or e-brake turn, etc. There's already so much to do just picking your line, picking your gear, shifting, braking, steering, looking ahead, being smooth, etc. I've been racing for 4 or 5 years and I've still got more to do than I can concentrate on with just basic techniques alone.

[A1337STI]

i'll have to check out those other titles, and keep the ebrake action to in game

good to know is the upcoming autoX subaru's only or open to any-all cars that fit a certain weight / power/ drive train configuration ? do a lot of people go to these? dozens? hundreds ? :O hehehe

[Dean]

Open to all... run what you brung as long as it isn't a minivan, SUV, or other high center of gravity vehicle.

No special preperation of any form is required. Anything from a Bone Stock Kia/Saturn to a race prepared Z06 Corvette.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Anything from a Bone Stock Kia/Saturn to a race prepared Z06 Corvette.

Don't you mean "Anything from a Bone Stock Kia/Saturn to a mildly prepared Subaru STI"? After all, the STI's were faster than the race preped Vettes.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by sperry

Don't you mean "Anything from a Bone Stock Kia/Saturn to a mildly prepared Subaru STI"? After all, the STI's were faster than the race preped Vettes.

From solely a money/effort standpoint, he's correct in ending with Vettes.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

From solely a money/effort standpoint, he's correct in ending with Vettes.

Oh yeah? If I had a Vette, it would have saved me money.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by sperry

Oh yeah? If I had a Vette, it would have saved me money.

I think most of us will agree that your situation is unique. You said, "mildly prepared STi," not, "Frankensuby."

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

Oh yeah? If I had a Vette, it would have saved me money.

Not really. How much money would you drop on your Vette after you got whooped by a handful of Subarus?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Not really. How much money would you drop on your Vette after you got whooped by a handful of Subarus?

A sane Vetter owner would sell his Vette and buy an STi after getting whooped by a handful of 'em.

...unless they've got a Chevy tatoo already, I guess.

[JC]

Originally Posted by sperry

Second, in real life, with modern tire and suspension technology, you will *never* be faster on tarmac e-brake sliding the car that you would be driving with grip. Even those fancy rally drivers that like to e-brake turn 1st gear hairpins are probably not going any faster than they would by just driving the corner with a proper apex. Sliding would only be faster in a corner that would require a 3 point turn otherwise.

I'm going to venture into this forum to disagree with this statement. Yes in general grip driving is faster on tarmac and definitely in a track enviroment. However, in rally they aren't really driving on pure tarmac, they are driving on a road that is mostly likely covered in dirt and debris if from other rally cars if nothing else. Sliding is occasionally faster in a rally situation and definitely safer (crashing is ALWAYS slower, haha). There is a thread by a WRC driver on NASIOC that talks about this, it's pretty insteresting.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

I'm going to venture into this forum to disagree with this statement. Yes in general grip driving is faster on tarmac and definitely in a track enviroment. However, in rally they aren't really driving on pure tarmac, they are driving on a road that is mostly likely covered in dirt and debris if from other rally cars if nothing else. Sliding is occasionally faster in a rally situation and definitely safer (crashing is ALWAYS slower, haha). There is a thread by a WRC driver on NASIOC that talks about this, it's pretty insteresting.

Okay, since JC disagrees with me, I'm changing my statement. A1337STI, you will absolutely be much faster if you e-brake slide the corners. JC says so, therefore it must be true.

JC, my point wasn't really to comment on rally... it was intended to keep a new autocrosser form going out on his 1st run w/ images of Petter Solberg in his head trying to dorifto all over the place. I understand that in rally, slip angles are *very* high, and on low traction surfaces (uncluding dirty/wet tarmac) that hanging the back end out is sometimes the fast line. But I still contend that on a good patch of tarmac, like we run on at Stead, even an experienced rally driver will have a hard time improving on their lap times by using the e-brake.

[JC]

Originally Posted by sperry

Okay, since JC disagrees with me, I'm changing my statement. A1337STI, you will absolutely be much faster if you e-brake slide the corners. JC says so, therefore it must be true.

JC, my point wasn't really to comment on rally... it was intended to keep a new autocrosser form going out on his 1st run w/ images of Petter Solberg in his head trying to dorifto all over the place. I understand that in rally, slip angles are *very* high, and on low traction surfaces (uncluding dirty/wet tarmac) that hanging the back end out is sometimes the fast line. But I still contend that on a good patch of tarmac, like we run on at Stead, even an experienced rally driver will have a hard time improving on their lap times by using the e-brake.

I was not the one to put cute little astereks around never. Of course it's not faster in auto-x, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna let you getting away with your damn blanket statements.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

I was not the one to put cute little astereks around never. Of course it's not faster in auto-x, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna let you getting away with your damn blanket statements.

I still stand by my blanket statement that A1337STI will *never* be faster on tarmac using the e-brake than not.

If he goes to rally school and trains for a few years, he might have a chance and I'll be happy to eat my words after he proves me wrong, but until then, I think my statement is true. And even after he's a world champion rally driver, I still think not using the e-brake will probably be faster, but I wouldn't guarentee it.

[Dean]

ebrake turns are only faster when they allow you to carry your speed further in to the corner and/or exit with more speed.

Remember that the only purpose of the ebrake is to facilitate rotation, not slow the car. tight switchbacks (about 120-200 degrees) are probably the primary place where that rotation significantly enhances corner speed on asphalt. The gotcha is that doing it acurately enough to be of benefit requires way more talent than I have. Maybe I'll practice at test and tune in April...

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by sperry

I still stand by my blanket statement that A1337STI will *never* be faster on tarmac using the e-brake than not.

What if he was towing a trailer for the non e-brake run?

[A1337STI]

i got it well put 4 passengers in my car for the non ebrake run. and just me for the ebrake run. i've never used my ebrake to slide my car out yet. ever . and i did just find a great little sand parking lot in carson (really fine soil, no rocks/ gravel) guess i should hop down there and test out the ebrake stuff. (since all we are getting is rain and no snow) that 100-120 degree type turn is what i'm picturing where a highly skilled driver could use the ebrake for benefit. ya i don't think i'll be any faster like that in 06' unless i did a very wreckless slide and got lucky, but chances are good that will just have me plowing over mad cones and looking foolish. (unless i scream D1 4 Life while i do it ... err... cancel that idea)

any one know where to buy cones ? lol i may have to set up a sharp turn on dirt (maybe snow) and see if i can even make an ebrake turn with any amount of control. ..

[sperry]

The only time I ever saw someone try to use the e-brake in a race was MattR's run in Lovelock.

It started with him at the line... "Hey ya'll, watch this!". Then he drove out the taxiway, on to the runway, and executed a beautiful rear-wheel lockup/pivot around the turnaround cone. Then proceeded to power-on drift the car right off the tarmac and into the desert. Then at the other end of the runway, he decided to drift the right-hand sweeper off the runway down the taxi-way, hitting like 5 cones with the left rear fender of the car... cones that dknv had to go pick up. I was the next car out and got red-flagged because Debbie couldn't get to that many cones before I arrived at her corner.

So yeah, the e-brake can be a ton of fun... but driving a proper apex is still faster.

Edit: oh that's not the only time I've seen an e-brake turn... Theo's used it to stop after the lights before.

[Kevin M]

Actually it was me that yelled that before Matt's 'exhibition run.' That's going to remain the single most entertaining moment in my autocross career for quite some time I'm sure!