Sway bars

[bruspeed]

So, all this talk about sways, I just bumped mine up to the last setting on my perrin, obviously snap oversteer is a huge deal now, I was curious though, Would adding a front sway kinda counter-act the tendency for the car to oversteer? I realize that it could very well increase oversteer, but the way the car is now, that would almost be welcome, seeing as how I can spin the car out at any moment. My train of thought here is that adding a front sway will help reduce the understeer of my full honk rsb, as well as adding some extra grip in the way of even less body roll. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[bruspeed]

So I did some searching and I think I'm gonna try adding a front sway bar to my setup. Worth a shot anyways.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by Joeyy

It's finally dry enofe to have a little fun. I'm still running the stock tires, but the understeer is GONE. I have not yet changed out the front bar and I don't know how much that will change stuff. I'm running the rear bar on the middle setting. What class do you think you'll be running in in April?

I'm gonna run STS. I've browsed through the allowable mods, and everything I had planned for the year would be ok. . . but I'm gonna have to cut back now that we have a young'n on the way. The best I can really hope to manage this year will be rims/tires before the season starts, a swaybar/links partway though the spring, and hopefully a lightweight pulley and intake/exhaust in the fall. My focus is on handling, though, so if I don't quite have the funds for intake/exhaust, I may settle for suspension bushings instead.

[bruspeed]

nevermind.

[Joeyy]

I'm adding the front swaybar soon. I just had to get the rear figured out first. Are you using the end hole or the one closest to the bar itself? I'm going to add STI pink springs before solo 2 season if they don't cost an arm and a leg.

[Kevin M]

You're on STi pink springs right Chris? I'd so go for it with the front sway. I always had a stock front bar on my RS, but I usually only ran the rear bar at full stiff for autocross, where the near-snap oversteer was welcome. If you can't find an adjustable, a 21 or 22mm fixed would still be good.

Joeyy, he's on the holes closest to the bar, farthest from the end.

[bruspeed]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

You're on STi pink springs right Chris? I'd so go for it with the front sway. I always had a stock front bar on my RS, but I usually only ran the rear bar at full stiff for autocross, where the near-snap oversteer was welcome. If you can't find an adjustable, a 21 or 22mm fixed would still be good.

Joeyy, he's on the holes closest to the bar, farthest from the end.

No, Tanabe gf210's, but today I went and found a deserted lot and whipped the car around a bit and I'm very happy with it actually, I think I might try adding an adjustable bar like you said Kevin, but the car seemed surprisingly well balanced, with just a hint of oversteer, which like you said is kinda welcome in Autox.

[Kevin M]

It probably still won't like to throttle oversteer, especially with the open rear diff, but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

. . .you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.

Like strut tower bars? What are the pros and cons associated with those?

[Kevin M]

Pros: they're cool to list as a mod and they do stiffen up the chassis a bit, the rear more than the front. Every little bit helps.

Cons: Good ones, made of less flexible metal with proper design, cost more, usually $100-140 apiece. Also, the rear is a pain to install. Not worth doing unless you're swapping springs and/or struts at the same time.

[cody]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Pros: they're cool to list as a mod and they do stiffen up the chassis a bit, the rear more than the front. Every little bit helps.

Cons: Good ones, made of less flexible metal with proper design, cost more, usually $100-140 apiece. Also, the rear is a pain to install. Not worth doing unless you're swapping springs and/or struts at the same time.

I install and uninstall my Whiteline Strut bar all the time.

[khail19]

Wagon owners have it easy. My rear strut brace takes a contortionist to get on and off.

[cody]

Wagons need one more than sedans so it's only fitting.

[bruspeed]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

It probably still won't like to throttle oversteer, especially with the open rear diff, but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.

On-throttle oversteer is a LONG ways away. I think I will look into some strut bars and other stiffening things.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I install and uninstall my Whiteline Strut bar all the time.

If you're not pre-tensioning that thing after taking it out and re-installing it, it's not really doing much to stiffen the rear.

[cody]

I've never heard that. Which way would you have me pre-tension it? Pushing outward or pulling inward?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I've never heard that. Which way would you have me pre-tension it? Pushing outward or pulling inward?

Unless you're able to get a ton of torque on that quick-release, the play in the bolt slot is probably more than the flex of the strut tops.

Pushing outward is how most do it, IIRC. But I don't have a quick release on mine, I just torqued mine down so it shouldn't move. If the threading on one of the ends of the bar is reverse, pre-loading is as simple as loosening the lock nuts and twisting the whole bar a few turns... but I don't remember if the Whiteline bar is threaded properly for that.

[cody]

According to this read, the bar is under tension (not compression) during cornering (which makes sense if you think about the force on the outside wheel during cornering). So, if anything, you'd want to pre-tension it, not pre-compress it...just to answer my own question.

2ndly, there is no discernable play in the quick-release bolts. They are very snug.

The Whiteline bar is not designed so you can simply spin the bar to lengthen and shorten it. You have to uninstall it on one side and spin the end piece that the Q-R bolt slides through to change its length. Perhaps I'll try to shorten it half a turn.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

According to this read, the bar is under tension (not compression) during cornering (which makes sense if you think about the force on the outside wheel during cornering). So, if anything, you'd want to pre-tension it, not pre-compress it...just to answer my own question.

2ndly, there is no discernable play in the quick-release bolts. They are very snug.

The Whiteline bar is not designed so you can simply spin the bar to lengthen and shorten it. You have to uninstall it on one side and spin the end piece that the Q-R bolt slides through to change its length. Perhaps I'll try to shorten it half a turn.

Interesting read. It's a bit counterintuitive that the strut towers spread apart under smooth cornering force, but I can believe that.

If the bar doesn't spin for adjustment, there's really no way to put a decent pre-tension on it. If you've got to be able to slide the bolt through it while it's a its final length, you're screwed. I guess just making sure that quick-release is nice and tight is the best you can do.

[cody]

The bar really has no play in it at all. It's very well made from what I can tell. The threads are very fine so I'm going to see if I can at least squeeze another half turn to shorten the bar just a tad. Maybe with my big ass sitting in the rear, the extra weight will flex the towers inward enough to get a touch of pre-load.

[M3n2c3]

Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?

Front STB is more of an eye-candy part... they don't do much since the front strut tops are so close to the firewall.

[cody]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?

I don't know if RS's are any less stiff than WRX's at the firewall and rear strut tower area, but most people concede that the benefits of a front STB are negligible and the rear is only slightly beneficial for a sedan.

Wagons are another story though since they don't get any structural integrity from the rear seat like sedans do.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I wouldn't count on any brace that uses pivoting joints doing much of anything useful. If you want a stiffer chassis, use bolted or welded joints.

Oh, and this:

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

...but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set...

is an absolutely fabulous idea.

[cody]

Monkey, the point of a RSB is to share the force flex between both strut towers. I fail to see how the pivoting joints take away from the usefulness of the bar. I wouldn't expect the bar to do anything other than keep the two strut towers at one constant distance from eachother (therby sharing the force exerted upon them). I think expecting a solid bar to keep the rear end "square" is asking too much of it.