Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras  

Go Back   Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras > Car Enthusiast Forums > Technical Chat

Technical Chat Ask and answer technical car questions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-02-07, 10:42 PM   #51
bruspeed
EJ251
 
bruspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sparks
Posts: 526
 
Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm
Class: TDSP
Default

So, all this talk about sways, I just bumped mine up to the last setting on my perrin, obviously snap oversteer is a huge deal now, I was curious though, Would adding a front sway kinda counter-act the tendency for the car to oversteer? I realize that it could very well increase oversteer, but the way the car is now, that would almost be welcome, seeing as how I can spin the car out at any moment. My train of thought here is that adding a front sway will help reduce the understeer of my full honk rsb, as well as adding some extra grip in the way of even less body roll. Correct me if I'm wrong.
__________________
Can anybody fly this thing?
bruspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-07, 11:10 PM   #52
bruspeed
EJ251
 
bruspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sparks
Posts: 526
 
Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm
Class: TDSP
Default

So I did some searching and I think I'm gonna try adding a front sway bar to my setup. Worth a shot anyways.
__________________
Can anybody fly this thing?
bruspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-07, 11:25 PM   #53
M3n2c3
EJ205
 
M3n2c3's Avatar
 
Real Name: Jeremiah
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 1,888
 
Car: 2005 Impreza 2.5RS, 2000 Forester L
Class: RNP sometimes (see motto)
 
"Kids are ruining autocross."
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeyy
It's finally dry enofe to have a little fun. I'm still running the stock tires, but the understeer is GONE. I have not yet changed out the front bar and I don't know how much that will change stuff. I'm running the rear bar on the middle setting. What class do you think you'll be running in in April?
I'm gonna run STS. I've browsed through the allowable mods, and everything I had planned for the year would be ok. . . but I'm gonna have to cut back now that we have a young'n on the way. The best I can really hope to manage this year will be rims/tires before the season starts, a swaybar/links partway though the spring, and hopefully a lightweight pulley and intake/exhaust in the fall. My focus is on handling, though, so if I don't quite have the funds for intake/exhaust, I may settle for suspension bushings instead.
__________________
Small red text that looks curious at first glance but is ultimately inconsequential
M3n2c3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-08, 12:08 AM   #54
bruspeed
EJ251
 
bruspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sparks
Posts: 526
 
Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm
Class: TDSP
Default

nevermind.
__________________
Can anybody fly this thing?
bruspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-08, 12:48 AM   #55
Joeyy
i can has kart?
 
Joeyy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 1,228
Default

I'm adding the front swaybar soon. I just had to get the rear figured out first. Are you using the end hole or the one closest to the bar itself? I'm going to add STI pink springs before solo 2 season if they don't cost an arm and a leg.
Joeyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-08, 01:04 AM   #56
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

You're on STi pink springs right Chris? I'd so go for it with the front sway. I always had a stock front bar on my RS, but I usually only ran the rear bar at full stiff for autocross, where the near-snap oversteer was welcome. If you can't find an adjustable, a 21 or 22mm fixed would still be good.

Joeyy, he's on the holes closest to the bar, farthest from the end.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-08, 10:06 PM   #57
bruspeed
EJ251
 
bruspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sparks
Posts: 526
 
Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm
Class: TDSP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
You're on STi pink springs right Chris? I'd so go for it with the front sway. I always had a stock front bar on my RS, but I usually only ran the rear bar at full stiff for autocross, where the near-snap oversteer was welcome. If you can't find an adjustable, a 21 or 22mm fixed would still be good.

Joeyy, he's on the holes closest to the bar, farthest from the end.

No, Tanabe gf210's, but today I went and found a deserted lot and whipped the car around a bit and I'm very happy with it actually, I think I might try adding an adjustable bar like you said Kevin, but the car seemed surprisingly well balanced, with just a hint of oversteer, which like you said is kinda welcome in Autox.
__________________
Can anybody fly this thing?
bruspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 12:11 AM   #58
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

It probably still won't like to throttle oversteer, especially with the open rear diff, but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 12:35 AM   #59
M3n2c3
EJ205
 
M3n2c3's Avatar
 
Real Name: Jeremiah
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 1,888
 
Car: 2005 Impreza 2.5RS, 2000 Forester L
Class: RNP sometimes (see motto)
 
"Kids are ruining autocross."
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
. . .you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.
Like strut tower bars? What are the pros and cons associated with those?
__________________
Small red text that looks curious at first glance but is ultimately inconsequential
M3n2c3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 12:39 AM   #60
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Pros: they're cool to list as a mod and they do stiffen up the chassis a bit, the rear more than the front. Every little bit helps.

Cons: Good ones, made of less flexible metal with proper design, cost more, usually $100-140 apiece. Also, the rear is a pain to install. Not worth doing unless you're swapping springs and/or struts at the same time.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 08:10 AM   #61
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Pros: they're cool to list as a mod and they do stiffen up the chassis a bit, the rear more than the front. Every little bit helps.

Cons: Good ones, made of less flexible metal with proper design, cost more, usually $100-140 apiece. Also, the rear is a pain to install. Not worth doing unless you're swapping springs and/or struts at the same time.
I install and uninstall my Whiteline Strut bar all the time.

cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 08:16 AM   #62
khail19
EJ205
 
Real Name: Khail
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,769
 
Car: 2016 VW GTI
 
Meets? We have meets?
Default

Wagon owners have it easy. My rear strut brace takes a contortionist to get on and off.
khail19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 08:18 AM   #63
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

Wagons need one more than sedans so it's only fitting.
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 10:37 AM   #64
bruspeed
EJ251
 
bruspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sparks
Posts: 526
 
Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm
Class: TDSP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
It probably still won't like to throttle oversteer, especially with the open rear diff, but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set until you decide you need coilovers. I would only do chassis stiffening mods to the suspension after that.

On-throttle oversteer is a LONG ways away. I think I will look into some strut bars and other stiffening things.
__________________
Can anybody fly this thing?
bruspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 10:44 AM   #65
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cody
I install and uninstall my Whiteline Strut bar all the time.

If you're not pre-tensioning that thing after taking it out and re-installing it, it's not really doing much to stiffen the rear.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 10:46 AM   #66
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

I've never heard that. Which way would you have me pre-tension it? Pushing outward or pulling inward?
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:02 AM   #67
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cody
I've never heard that. Which way would you have me pre-tension it? Pushing outward or pulling inward?
Unless you're able to get a ton of torque on that quick-release, the play in the bolt slot is probably more than the flex of the strut tops.

Pushing outward is how most do it, IIRC. But I don't have a quick release on mine, I just torqued mine down so it shouldn't move. If the threading on one of the ends of the bar is reverse, pre-loading is as simple as loosening the lock nuts and twisting the whole bar a few turns... but I don't remember if the Whiteline bar is threaded properly for that.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:10 AM   #68
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

According to this read, the bar is under tension (not compression) during cornering (which makes sense if you think about the force on the outside wheel during cornering). So, if anything, you'd want to pre-tension it, not pre-compress it...just to answer my own question.

2ndly, there is no discernable play in the quick-release bolts. They are very snug.

The Whiteline bar is not designed so you can simply spin the bar to lengthen and shorten it. You have to uninstall it on one side and spin the end piece that the Q-R bolt slides through to change its length. Perhaps I'll try to shorten it half a turn.
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:19 AM   #69
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cody
According to this read, the bar is under tension (not compression) during cornering (which makes sense if you think about the force on the outside wheel during cornering). So, if anything, you'd want to pre-tension it, not pre-compress it...just to answer my own question.

2ndly, there is no discernable play in the quick-release bolts. They are very snug.

The Whiteline bar is not designed so you can simply spin the bar to lengthen and shorten it. You have to uninstall it on one side and spin the end piece that the Q-R bolt slides through to change its length. Perhaps I'll try to shorten it half a turn.
Interesting read. It's a bit counterintuitive that the strut towers spread apart under smooth cornering force, but I can believe that.

If the bar doesn't spin for adjustment, there's really no way to put a decent pre-tension on it. If you've got to be able to slide the bolt through it while it's a its final length, you're screwed. I guess just making sure that quick-release is nice and tight is the best you can do.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:56 AM   #70
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

The bar really has no play in it at all. It's very well made from what I can tell. The threads are very fine so I'm going to see if I can at least squeeze another half turn to shorten the bar just a tad. Maybe with my big ass sitting in the rear, the extra weight will flex the towers inward enough to get a touch of pre-load.
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:57 AM   #71
M3n2c3
EJ205
 
M3n2c3's Avatar
 
Real Name: Jeremiah
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 1,888
 
Car: 2005 Impreza 2.5RS, 2000 Forester L
Class: RNP sometimes (see motto)
 
"Kids are ruining autocross."
Default

Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?
__________________
Small red text that looks curious at first glance but is ultimately inconsequential
M3n2c3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:58 AM   #72
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3n2c3
Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?
Front STB is more of an eye-candy part... they don't do much since the front strut tops are so close to the firewall.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 11:59 AM   #73
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3n2c3
Hmm. I may have to add front and rear strut tower bars to my list for the year. Is that an appropriate progression from sway bars, or is there something else that I'd be better off upgrading?
I don't know if RS's are any less stiff than WRX's at the firewall and rear strut tower area, but most people concede that the benefits of a front STB are negligible and the rear is only slightly beneficial for a sedan.

Wagons are another story though since they don't get any structural integrity from the rear seat like sedans do.
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 12:08 PM   #74
AtomicLabMonkey
Nightwalker
 
AtomicLabMonkey's Avatar
 
Real Name: Austin
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oshkosh, WI
Posts: 4,063
 
Car: '13 WRX
 
YGBSM
Default

I wouldn't count on any brace that uses pivoting joints doing much of anything useful. If you want a stiffer chassis, use bolted or welded joints.

Oh, and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
...but if you can get controllable snap oversteer (easy to cancel with a little counter steer) with quick lifts as you turn-in, you're pretty much set...
is an absolutely fabulous idea.
__________________
"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you.. you're locked in here with me."
AtomicLabMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-02-09, 12:40 PM   #75
cody
Candy Mountain
 
cody's Avatar
 
Real Name: Cody
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Californication
Posts: 7,751
 
Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink!
Class: TESP
 
OMG Internet!
Default

Monkey, the point of a RSB is to share the force flex between both strut towers. I fail to see how the pivoting joints take away from the usefulness of the bar. I wouldn't expect the bar to do anything other than keep the two strut towers at one constant distance from eachother (therby sharing the force exerted upon them). I think expecting a solid bar to keep the rear end "square" is asking too much of it.
cody is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: WRX stock rear sway M3n2c3 User Classifieds 12 2006-06-30 08:51 AM
WRX Wagon sway bar options. Dean Technical Chat 11 2006-06-02 10:18 AM
Stock sway bar and jack handle free ArthurS User Classifieds 27 2006-04-17 10:01 PM
FS: rear sway bar soulcrusher500 User Classifieds 5 2006-03-21 09:56 AM
Sway bar question MikeK Technical Chat 6 2004-08-11 09:01 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All Content Copyright Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras unless otherwise noted.