What is the handling advantage of

[moose]

having strut tower bars? Would $60 be worth the front and rear?

Oh and sorry if I posted in the wrong forum.

[Dean]

In general, strut bars are not of great benefit relative to other suspension upgrades. In the front, there is a firewall right behind the struts and the rear is similar, so flex is not really a big issue.

[moose]

Alright thanks

[Kevin M]

Dean is not pro-strut brace, but some people (like me) say they can't possibly be hurting given how little they weigh and could be improving. Search the forum for detailed analysis from both sides here. That said, your lack of real suspension upgrades means that you would see zero benefit from them. Get coilovers, then chassis stiffening will become important, but right now the car is still stiffer than the springs by far.

[sperry]

I think a rear bar is worth it on a wagon. On a sedan it's more bling than performance.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

I think a rear bar is worth it on a wagon. On a sedan it's more bling than performance.

Agreed to some extent. I still have a wagon bar lying around since Sue didn't want it if somebody wants it.

The problem with almost all of them is that they have pivot points of some form, so at most, they only prevent the tops of the towers from moving closer or further apart, but do not actually prevent twisting or vertical displacement. In addition, many of them have to many bends and/or are of materials insufficient to even significantly reduce tower relative position.

[Nick Koan]

I've always read on the internet (which means I'm infallably right) that strut tower braces are more for chassis stiffening than handling.

Granted, once you reach a certain point, chassis stiffening helps handling, at this point its probably very minimal compared to what else you can do. On the other hand, its not like it makes your car any worse to drive.

[sybir]

Yep. I have a rear bar lying around that I never got around to installing, but I have a one-piece front brace (with a master cylinder stopper integrated) that actually made a difference in NVH under torsion (now cowl rattles, etc) after putting my coilovers on. Most of it is having a single rigid piece installed with the suspension unloaded (off the ground) so you get a little preload.

On wagons, the rear makes a huge difference. On sedans/coupes, not so much.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by Dean

I still have a wagon bar lying around since Sue didn't want it if somebody wants it.

I am interested. What kind, and how much?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by k-dogg39

I am interested. What kind, and how much?

I got it free I think from somebody, so it is yours if you want it.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by Dean

I got it free I think from somebody, so it is yours if you want it.

I will take it! Thanks! Not sure if I can make it to the meet this week. If not could you bring it to the next AutoX?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Nick Koan

I've always read on the internet (which means I'm infallably right) that strut tower braces are more for chassis stiffening than handling.

Granted, once you reach a certain point, chassis stiffening helps handling, at this point its probably very minimal compared to what else you can do. On the other hand, its not like it makes your car any worse to drive.

IMO with most street cars (excluding Flexi-Flyer{tm} convertibles) you will not notice any benefit from strapping a bunch of extra parts on in an attempt to stiffen the chassis. You might actually make the car a tad slower from the extra weight. If you want to go faster, drop as much weight as you can - it's the ultimate enemy of performance.

The only big, noticeable gain in chassis stiffness that will translate into quicker lap times in just about any car will come from stripping out the interior and welding a 6+ point roll cage into it. And then it's not a street car anymore.

[Dewey]

what is the cheapest possible mod that can make handling better?

[wrxkidid]

seat time.

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by wrxkidid

seat time.

what?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dewmudgeon

what?

The best thing you can do to go faster is to practice driving, i.e. get "seat time"

[Dewey]

oh ok... well, what about a mod for a car? sways? springs?

[moose]

Sway bars I guess. Best bang for the buck IMO.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by moose

Sway bars I guess. Best bang for the buck IMO.

Nope, tires. Spending $1000 on tires will do more for you than $4000 in suspension bits assuming the car doesn't have totally worthless stock suspension and you can get an alignment to make use of the tires.

The problem is that you're going to have to spend that $1000 over and over again because race tires wear out fast. But still, tires are the number one mod by far for going faster. Yet they're still nowhere near as economical as just getting seat time in terms of going faster for cheaper.

[Dean]

I can't stress how important seat time is. You can spend a fortune on your car and still get your ass kicked by an '89 Civic on street tires driven well.

Save your money for track days. I suggest Thunderhill as probably the best first track for learning on. Hell, it is probably the best learning track at most any level in N. CA/NV.

The fewer mods your car has, the faster you will learn to drive. tires, suspension, brakes, power, etc... All may allow you to go faster, but don't make you a better driver an make it harder to learn to be one.

Within reason, the more the car rolls, dives, won't stop, won't accelerate, the better the driver has to be to go fast and the more feedback is given to the driver to learn from.

[Dewey]

note to self... listen to dean.
btw, when is the next thunderhill event?

[Dean]

Some group is at Thunderhill pretty much every day of the year.

I wold suggest Hooked On Driving, T.E.A.M, and the Audi Club. The former have them there regularly. Audi Club is every January as I recall.

[cody]

I hear a lot of talk about "Evolution Driving School" on Nasioc. What's the scoop on that?

[Kevin M]

http://www.evoschool.com/

You've heard it a lot from Dean too, if you were paying attention.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

I hear a lot of talk about "Evolution Driving School" on Nasioc. What's the scoop on that?

Kevin's link works, but basically, they are purely autocross focused. I have taken almost all of their courses and wholeheartedly endorse them if Autocrossing better is your primary goal. Be prepared to drive, events are not nearby last I knew.

The "Senor Cheap bastard" trick I used was to buy tickets in their end of year raffle which if you win gets you free entries for the entire following year. I think I sent less than 1 event's entry on tickets and won free entries for the year for both Debbie and I. This was after paying for 1 or two events and realizing the value.

Track Schools are more focused on general techniques at speed which are more valuable in the real world. Thunderhill in January with at least 1 day of rain is the best!