Navy Seals, OMGBBQFTW

[sperry]

I'm assuming ya'll read about the pirates that took that American ship captain hostage on a life boat. Well, our SEALs parachuted into the area in the middle of the night, and sniped the three pirates with 3 simultaneous headshots.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

Goddamnit the SEALs are some scary cool badasses.

[Dean]

While I commend their skill and actions, I wonder why days ago they did not swim to the lifeboat at night, pump some sort of knock out gas into it and take the boat peacefully?

[ScottyS]

Originally Posted by Dean

While I commend their skill and actions, I wonder why days ago they did not swim to the lifeboat at night, pump some sort of knock out gas into it and take the boat peacefully?

Cause you're more likely to succeed if you can shoot them all from 100ft away. I like the part about them parachuting onto the ship though.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by Dean

While I commend their skill and actions, I wonder why days ago they did not swim to the lifeboat at night, pump some sort of knock out gas into it and take the boat peacefully?

Because crazy purple knockout gas always backfires

[Dean]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Cause you're more likely to succeed if you can shoot them all from 100ft away. I like the part about them parachuting onto the ship though.

Not sure I buy that entirely. That is a good backup/plan B, but knocking out people who have to sleep and one on guard can't be that tough. Synchronized shooting from one moving vessel to another moving vessel has to have some level of risk especially with the hostage in play and in close proximity to one of the pirates.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Not sure I buy that entirely. That is a good backup/plan B, but knocking out people who have to sleep and one on guard can't be that tough. Synchronized shooting from one moving vessel to another moving vessel has to have some level of risk especially with the hostage in play and in close proximity to one of the pirates.

"Close proximity" for a professionally trained killer is not necessarily "close proximity" to you, I or even the hostage. His viewpoint may vary wildly though.

Also, simultaneous headshots is WAY better deterrent to all the wannabe pirates than knockout gas + jail. I foresee a bursting ofthe piracy bubble next quarter.

[ScottyS]

100ft is plenty close for moving targets, multiple shooters per target, and at least semi or burst weapons. All that's needed are clear lanes around the good guy, and with only 3 bad guys that's easy to evaluate. It's not like it has to be headshots all 'round. You don't risk getting someone excited and popping the good guy, you just sit there until the shoot command is given. Especially in a situation where there is no clear order.

[sybir]

Taking a hostage and threatening to kill them warrants lethal force. I don't care. You take someone else's life in your hands and try to use it as a bargaining chip to get out of criminal actions, you deserve what coming to you, including a shot between the eyes.

The PC'ing of the world means people no longer consider consequences the same way, and it's getting ridiculous. This isn't "you have to be proven guilty in a court of law", this is "you're threatening an innocent individual with a brutal death for your own personal gain." Fuck 'em.

[sybir]

Also, what good is a lethal "backup" plan in this situation? A botched first attempt would result in a panicked man with an AK and a dead captain. I don't see how that's acceptable.

[Dean]

I am far from a military strategist, but, waiting for one guy to fall over and taking any other action or sound as a "take the shot" order sounds way safer. You know they had IR and mics on the target.

Remember, this was not 4 guys sitting out in the open in a rubber raft, this is a large enclosed lifeboat made of fiberglass/plastic/wood and whatever! This had to have been done with IR or similar sights through which I believe the image is far from as clear as a visual sight.

And the deterrent argument is old and tired. They are just as likely to start killing crews at the least provocation in the future.

Again, I am not saying the wrong thing was done given the situation, but instead playing armchair quarterback after the fact and discussing alternatives.

[sperry]

What part of their order to take action only if the captains life appeared immediately in danger is confusing? One minute they're all inside, the next the captain is on deck to take a piss and a pissed off pirate is poking him in the back with a rifle. A what point in the 3 seconds of time to save this guys life do the seals wait for dark then sneak aboard with knockout gas? Especially when there's no such thing as a fast acting knockout gas that doesn't actually carry a high probability of just killing everyone on board.

The snipers were the backup plan, and it's likely that their preperation and skill saved a life at the expense of three criminals.

And I must say, the one kid that turned himself in made the smartest decision he's ever made. It likely saved his life.

[wrxkidid]

isnt it past your bedtime??? haha.

They were threatening an innocent human being therefore they forfited their right to live.

I have a friend who is a commander of a navy seal team. They do everything in their power to not use deadly force but will not hesitate to use it when necessary and in this case it was necessary.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

What part of their order to take action only if the captains life appeared immediately in danger is confusing? One minute they're all inside, the next the captain is on deck to take a piss and a pissed off pirate is poking him in the back with a rifle. A what point in the 3 seconds of time to save this guys life do the seals wait for dark then sneak aboard with knockout gas? Especially when there's no such thing as a fast acting knockout gas that doesn't actually carry a high probability of just killing everyone on board.

The snipers were the backup plan, and it's likely that their preperation and skill saved a life at the expense of three criminals.

And I must say, the one kid that turned himself in made the smartest decision he's ever made. It likely saved his life.

Nothing about that is confusing. And I know they were the ongoing contingency in case of imminent threat. My question is why it had to come to that? It has been how many days?

Again, I do not claim to know knockout gas technology, but I do not think they are that lethal. We only need the one conscious guy to fall asleep while the seals sneak aboard and take control. Snipers can still be on the fantail ready to fire and it would be unlikely that a gun would be to the captains head at that time.

I am just saying they had other options right up until that point they did not take and would like to know why?

It is quite possible the navy was not allowed to try anything else. It has been very interesting listening to the owners of other shipping lines discussing their past negotiations with pirates and their resistance to involving the military. The military may only have had authority to act in the case of an imminent threat because the shipping line and insurance company were still trying to settle with the pirates.

The shipping companies and insurance companies are largely to blame for the situation in the first place. Slowing the ships down to save fuel, giving multimillion dollar settlements in the past and under equipping/staffing the ships to repel boarders.

I don't want to start a big debate, I agree they got what they deserved, I'd just like to know what led us to where we ended up, what options were considered and who was really in charge making the calls before the end.

[sperry]

I think the biggest issue was that the Navy's best shot was simply to out wait the pirates. The pirates were in a small boat, surrounded, injured (the kid that turned himself in had been stabbed in the hand apparently), cut off from resupply (only getting the food that the Navy gave them), etc. Hell, the Navy was even towing their boat when the sniping went down.

So really, the Navy had nearly all the cards in the waiting game. The only thing they couldn't control, and the biggest risk to playing the waiting game, was if the stress they were putting on the pirates might cause the bad guys to essentially commit suicide by killing the captain out of frustration. And that's what the snipers were for... It was basically dumb luck that when shit went down, all 3 of the pirates were exposed for the shot. But it was years of training that allowed the SEALs to capitalize on that dumb luck.

[Dean]

I agree with you completely Scott, but from what I have been listening to (Remember, I get to watch news all day long), the Navy was not in charge. Only in the event of a life threatening situation were they likely allowed to take action.

The insurance company on behalf of the ship owners were still likely making the decisions. Not an international waters lawyer, but the way I have been hearing it, the Navy can't do anything on the open sea on a private vessel, even a lifeboat, without the owner's permission and thus the lawyers are then in charge which is often the worst people to be.

I'd bet the seals had plans to take control of the lifeboat that could have taken place earlier but the lawyers/insurance company did not want to make that call and be liable if it went bad. They likely still wanted to settle for some cash and free passage.

I'd just like to know more than "it was resolved" and I doubt we ever will.

[Kevin M]

I would be willing to bet that with an American being held captive by terrorists (yes, that's what "pirates" technically are) the Navy is within their rights to "take control" of the situation. Letting the shipping company control negotiations etc. was probably a decision, not a requirement.

And like I said before- the Piracy bubble probably just burst. Or at least, they won't try it with anymore American-crewed ships.

[Dean]

I don't know, but from what I am hearing, the lawyers were in control and the Navy only had authority if the captian's life was in immediate danger.

The most recent animation shows all 3 pirates magically visible in one small window and alleging knowledge that a gun was against the captain's head but he and the gun were not visible...

I'd agree on American ships. This was the first and probably last American ship they mess with.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Well, personally I would argue that they are not terrorists; their motivation is money, plain and simple. Shipping lines have been regularly paying them ransom for years now when they jack ships, so to the pirates it's just a business. Terrorism on the other hand is violence by non-state actors to achieve political goals. This has nothing to do with politics.

And the piracy "bubble" is far from being burst. The only way it will stop is if the boats they send out of port are regularly sunk, or if they are attacked and dispersed on land. Or some combination of the two. The shipping lines have been very reticent about putting armed security teams on their ships, even when this problem has been going on for years. They'd apparently rather just pay ransom for the small percentage of ships that get jacked, as an additional cost of doing business.

Those guys got what they deserved, though. Very impressive action by the SEALs, especially from a floating platform where a small deck pitch could throw off your shot by feet.

[sperry]

The pirates have already vowed to specifically target American and French (because the French recently pulled a similar rescue for some of their citizens, though one hostage lost their life in that one) nationals for "revenge" killing.

However, something tells me that if an American hostage is killed outright rather than used as a bargaining chip, which is the equivalent of these pirates actually becoming terrorists, the Somalis are going to end up with cruise missiles landing on their shit, and US warships shooting first and asking questions later on any aggressive acting Somalian ships.

Personally, I'd like to see some phalanx auto-guns retasked to target small boats rather than incoming missiles, and just bolt a few of them to US ships in the area. The captain pushes the panic button and the pirates' suddenly have to deal with a rope stream of lead raining down on them. A few encounters like that and all the cargo ships will have to do is bolt a few hot water heaters to the deck and watch the pirates steer clear.

[wildfirefli]

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[sperry]

Originally Posted by wildfirefli

It would be so fun to cap someone between the eyes man! I read some BS in the paper about Obama bailing the pirates out. It made me laugh real hard.

Seriously?

[wildfirefli]

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[sperry]

Originally Posted by wildfirefli

Yeah seriously. haven't you ever thought how cool it would be to be a seal???

There's some serious people in this world that should be shot.

I'm sure the only pleasure real SEALs get out of "capping someone between the eyes" is just the same pleasure anyone gets from doing a difficult job well. Psycho's that are try to become SEALs because they enjoy killing are vetted out during the long process of turning mere men into SEALs. I guarantee they get no pleasure from taking a life.

This shit isn't "Tom Clancy's Rainbow-6: High Seas Assault".

[wildfirefli]

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[wildfirefli]

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