Camber Issue

[Kevin M]

You'd also want to run different wheels for street too, since pushing out the camber plates gives you less fender clearance. But, don't be afraid of toe. I had tons of toe-out front and rear on my RS for over 2 years and didn't have tire wear issues, even with my snow tires.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

You'd also want to run different wheels for street too, since pushing out the camber plates gives you less fender clearance. But, don't be afraid of toe. I had tons of toe-out front and rear on my RS for over 2 years and didn't have tire wear issues, even with my snow tires.

You must have only thought you had a lot of toe, or never used the brakes.

One trials event w/ lots of negative camber and too much toe out on my car nearly corded the inside edges of my front tires due to braking. Dean's car at RFR w/ lots of toe out was borderline undriveable under braking w/ the darty dance it does over every tiny little bump. My car last weekend w/ too much rear toe-out spun what, 4 times?

Toe makes a *huge* difference in stability, and it exacerbates tire wear due to camber dramatically.

[MPREZIV]

Lots of toe out combined with lots of negative camber will MURDER your tires. That is all...

[cody]

Ack, I'm just going to have the Sid align the rears so the 615's fit and then make the front negative camber about 150% of whatever that amount ends up being (I'm guessing -1.2 in the rear and -1.7 or so in the front). Zero toe all around and call it a done deal. Does that sound right?

I shouldn't be spending money on mods right now anyway so screw the camber plates.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Ack, I'm just going to have the Sid align the rears so the 615's fit and then make the front negative camber about 150% of whatever that amount ends up being (I'm guessing -1.2 in the rear and -1.7 or so in the front). Zero toe all around and call it a done deal. Does that sound right?

I shouldn't be spending money on mods right now anyway so screw the camber plates.

I think that sounds like a pretty good plan.

[cody]

Cool, thanks. I just hope the stock camber bolts I ordered can get me enough front camber. I decided to roll the dice and get the stockers.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

You must have only thought you had a lot of toe, or never used the brakes.

One trials event w/ lots of negative camber and too much toe out on my car nearly corded the inside edges of my front tires due to braking. Dean's car at RFR w/ lots of toe out was borderline undriveable under braking w/ the darty dance it does over every tiny little bump. My car last weekend w/ too much rear toe-out spun what, 4 times?

Toe makes a *huge* difference in stability, and it exacerbates tire wear due to camber dramatically.

Oh, it definitely had a huge negative effect on stability on the track, especially on the ridiculously bad mismatched section comng into turn 12 (I think- can never keep corner numbers straight) at RFR at the TNL/SECCS track day.. But it was heaven for autocross and smoother tracks, like Thunder Hill. I had that alignment when you rode with me at the drift day, and also when you drove my car around for whatever reason I've forgotten. It's a big compromise in many ways, but I liked it. Anyway, I never got much uneven tire wear, which surprised me. There could very well be some mitigating factor I'm unaware of, like Dean's cone theory that prevented uneven wear.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

Lots of toe out combined with lots of negative camber will MURDER your tires. That is all...

I agree it should... but mine didn't. Still dunno why I got 30,000 miles out of my Dunlops with my goofy alignment.

[cody]

I was searching for how much camber the stock camber bolts give you and found this:

Your OEM front struts have an eccentric bolt install in the lower bottom hole of the strut, where it mounts to the axle assembly, and is good for 0.75 +/- degrees of adjustment. You can also install and aftermarket eccentric bolt, by Whitline in the upper mounting hole to gain another 0.75 degrees of adjustment. Be careful with the added bolts, because your added camber will need to coordinated with your SAI values when the alignment shop aligns your car. For example, if you ask the tech to dial in as much negative camber as he can get out of the eccentric bolts like -1.25 degrees for the left and right wheels without looking at the SAI byproduct, your car may pull at low speeds due to uneven SAI's. So the amount of usable adjustable camber will be limited to the SAI values it produces. I would suggest that you do not add the top eccentric bolts, rather add Whiteline’s ALK-street version to gain more positive caster, which will not effect your tire wear or an adjustable strut top hat that will give you more direct control over the SAI and camber values-especially if you keep the factory eccentric bolt in place and use them to even out the left and right SAI before you adjust the caster with the top hats.

Linky

What are SAI's and do I need to worry about them?

Oh, and he's talking about a '04 WRX/STI/Spec-C MY04 WRX/STF 6mt apparently.

[sperry]

Steering Axis Inclination (SAI)

SAI is the measurement in degrees of the steering pivot line when viewed from the front of the vehicle. This angle, when added to the camber to form the included angle (see below) causes the vehicle to lift slightly when you turn the wheel away from a straight ahead position. This action uses the weight of the vehicle to cause the steering wheel to return to the center when you let go of it after making a turn. Because of this, if the SAI is different from side to side, it will cause a pull at very slow speeds. Most alignment machines have a way to measure SAI; however it is not separately adjustable. The most likely cause for SAI being out is bent parts which must be replaced to correct the condition. SAI is also referred to as KPI (King Pin Inclination) on trucks and old cars with king pins instead of ball joints.



http://www.familycar.com/alignment.h...ination%20(SAI)

[cody]

Do I need to worry about them?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

In terms of alignment, ideally SAI should be even side to side. In the real world, if you use a camber plate at the top of the strut tower to change your alignment then you're affecting SAI when you change the camber. I've never felt any noticeable adverse effects from this method though.

More theoretically, any SAI reduces negative camber gain from the caster angle as the wheels are steered. Also, the distance between the projected point of the SA on the ground and the wheel centerline is known as the scrub radius, the amount of which has some interesting effects on steering feedback and stability.

[cody]

So apparently if you install camber bolts, you have to install them one way to subtract camber and another way to add camber. Since the passenger rear tire rubs the fender and the driver side rear tire rubs the chassis, I'm not really sure which way I should install the Eibach camber bolts in the rear...maybe I shouldn't even install them and Sid can just loosen the strut tops and apply latteral force to the wheel to get the tires to fit. I'm thinking I may still need fender rolling...

[A1337STI]

Very informative thread. I'm on 100% stock suspesion and i plan to stay that way for a while (only 13K miles on my car figure i should wear out the stock suspension 1st) I would like to be able to adjust my Camber though, (with in stock parameters so that i can stay in SP) from what i've read on IWSTI, they mention what Cody brought up. you can do 2 camber bolts and reach about - 1.5 Front (on an 05 STI) but that will mess up your caster , and your SAI. they suggestion was to use the stock camber bolts below (to get -.75 camber) and to use an ALK (anti lift kit) up top. which on one of the threads they said you could replace a bushing or something up top and that would change your caster in a way that would reduce postive camber while cornering.

they also wrote that the 05 STI has postive camber up front from the factory (not even 0) ??? is that true ? Should i go into the subaru dealership for these types of adjustments (installs) ? or a diff alignment shop. I do not want to leave factory specs (can't if i want to stay with in SP)

negative camber helps you corner cuase it keeps more tire contact during body roll, on snow with less grip you roll less, does negative camber not help (or as much) on snow ? (i dought the positive camber that my 05 Might have, helps me at all)

also would i really notice my tires wearing down quicker with just - .75 camber ? how many less miles are we talking on the tires? stock RE070s are going to last what Maybe 12K miles? (lol maybe 6K with biweekly autocrosses ?) or is it just the toe in/out that you need to avoid.

[Dean]

The answer is seven...

Ok, maybe not. As there is no such thing as tire or brake pad for all conditions, so is the same with alignments.

For snow you want the tire pretty flat at all times. So Zero everything...

Track/Autocross(for AWD) is in the neighborhood of 3 degrees, and maybe a little toe out on one or both ends.

For minimum wear, zero toe, and camber to suit driving style.

So what is your poison...?

The compromise is probably in the neighborhood of a degree to a degree and a half negative front and 3/4 to 1 negative in the rear... And zero toe.

[cody]

Originally Posted by cody

So apparently if you install camber bolts, you have to install them one way to subtract camber and another way to add camber. Since the passenger rear tire rubs the fender and the driver side rear tire rubs the chassis, I'm not really sure which way I should install the Eibach camber bolts in the rear...maybe I shouldn't even install them and Sid can just loosen the strut tops and apply latteral force to the wheel to get the tires to fit. I'm thinking I may still need fender rolling...

Maybe I'll just try to adjust the rear camber myself by loosening the strut tops and (through trial and error) adjust the camber by just pushing on the wheel and retightening everything up, until the tires don't rub the chassis or the fenders. Then I'll just have Sid check to make sure the camber is even enough on both sides. Hopefully it is and I won't have to roll my fenders...

I've seen a lot of conflicting info on how much adjustment the stock bolts allow. I've seen .75 degrees and I've seen 1.5 degrees. The Eibach's allow 1 degree. Since I have the OE bolts on order, I could compare them side by side to see if I can tell by looking at them.

[sperry]

The ALK is not "up top". It's an offset bracket/bushing that relocates the lower control arm rear mounting point a little less than an inch lower. It's illegal in all SCCA classes except Modified, as it changes a suspension mounting point. In addition, subframe offset bushings are necessary to relocate the front crash structure subframe so it doesn't contact the new LCA mounting point, which is also illegal in every SCCA class except Modified.

But if you're interested anyway, I've got an ALK sitting in my garage, all bagged up and ready to sell.

An alternative to the ALK is to replace the stock LCA rear bushing w/ an offset bushing. It's not quite as good as the full ALK, but you will gain some static caster, as well as firm up the LCA because the bushing is Polyurethan instead of rubber.

[A1337STI]

Aaah ! thank you for the clarification. Is Replacing the Stock LCA bushing Allowed in SP ?

15.5C .... Shock absorber mounting
brackets which serve no other purpose may be altered, added or
replaced, provided that the attachment points on the body/
frame/subframe/chassis/suspension member are not altered.
....
MacPherson strut equipped cars may substitute struts,
and/or may use any insert. This does not allow unauthorized
changes in suspension geometry or changes in attachment
points (e.g., affecting the position of the lower ball joint or
spindle). It is intended to allow the strut length changes needed
to accommodate permitted modifications which affect ride
....

My goal is to spend around 500ish on suspension adjustments (since i have a set of RE070s, and 2 spare RE070 tires , i'll find 2 more with similar tread depth online) and the camber bolts sound cheap, and an alignment isn't that much money .

what i read on IWSTI cody was 1 bolt lets you adjust your camber .75, using 2 bolts you can adjust it 1.5 (i'm just repeating what i read though) but it also warned that if you use a top bolt with the bottom bolt you mess up your Caster and it warned against doing that for autocross. (it said you will get more positive camber during body roll becuase of a bad SAI. Although you are specifically allowed 2 camber bolts in the SP Class (and camber Shimmies ??? i don't know what a shimmy is )

I also saw a suggestion for replacing the Diff bushings (rear and center diffs i assume) again i don't know why that would help. perhaps less of your power would be used up in diff movement, and more would make it to the wheels. (i think at this point more power won't help me at all, just seat time, sticky tires and Re070s are pricey enough!!, and maybe a few adjustment tweaks, and more seat time)

Thanks for the offer on the ALK btw, do you have any stuff laying around to sell that won't bump me out of SP ? lmk (sway bars? , strut tower braces?)

Thanks again for the Camber suggestions. i'll call up subaru tomorrow and see what the stock suspension even allows for camber settings and go as close to what you suggested as possible.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

Aaah ! thank you for the clarification. Is Replacing the Stock LCA bushing Allowed in SP ?

Yes. Call up your preferred Whiteline vendor and specifically ask for the autocross legal ALK insert bushing. I hear MPJ Performance in Hayward is probably the top whiteline vendor on the west coast, and I've had good experiences with them before.

Also, installing that bushing is a real pain. I highly recommend letting someone who an put the car on a lift and has a bearing press handy. Sid can probably do it (he un-installed my ALK last year), as can most of the other local places we mention here from time to time.

[cody]

From what I read today, you can't use the OEM camber bolts anywher but their intended location, the top bolt hole in the strut...[Edit: You *could* but you'd have to drill the hole ovular] not 100% if that's the case though.

Alex, get thee a 3 way adjustable swaybar. I don't *think* you need upgraded mounts, but you'll want solid endlinks for sure. Brand isn't super important on these, but grease all the bushings with lithium grease when you install it.

Buy the H&R camber bolts. Let me know and I'll give you the number of a place that has them for like $36 +S&H IIRC. They allow 3 degrees of adjustment (as Scott mentioned) and they're supposedly much beefier than other aftermarket camber bolts.

Unfortunately the only true Suby parts dealer that seems to have them is Vivid Racing. I don't usually suggest Vivid, but maybe you can save some money on shipping by getting all of the parts there.

But if you really want to spend 500ish, I'd look into getting some camber/caster plates.

As far as an ideal street alignment I'd suggest -1.4 front and -1 rear.

[A1337STI]

Awesome, thanks for the ideas. well i'de like to keep it below 500 ish. from what you are saying an alignment is $200 , and camber bolts are $35 , getting those LCA bushings . should put me right about at my budget. maybe i'll get some adjustable sway bars if i want to splurge. (i would definatly need adjustable cuase i'll want 1 settings for track, 1 for daily summer driver, and a 3rd for winter driver)

[cody]

If you install your camber bolts yourself, Sid said the alignment shouldn't cost more than $80-$100, but he basically charges by the hour. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get the LCA bushings installed.

But I'd get the rear sway before the bushings if you have to choose.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Dean

Did they give back the factory bolts? If so, just put those back in, and put the aftermarkets in the rear. Either way, bolts are cheap, just get a second set...

You may be able to fudge a little by lossening both spindle - strut bolts and putting torque on the spindle while you re tighten them, but that won't be real exact.

Yes, there is probably a little play in the top mounts. same thing as the spindle... Losten, apply horzontal pressure, tighten.

Can sombody please elaborate on Dean's instructions here please? The strut bolts are the 3 little guys that my strut tower bar mount to right? And the spindle bolt is the one in the center right? So should I loosen all 4, jack up the rear of the car and push on the wheel in the direction I want and then check to see if that made a difference somehow?

Since I want one rear wheel to gain a touch of neg. camber and the other to gain a touch of pos. camber, I'm thinking I may not need to install camber bolts. Thanks.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by cody

Can sombody please elaborate on Dean's instructions here please? The strut bolts are the 3 little guys that my strut tower bar mount to right? And the spindle bolt is the one in the center right? So should I loosen all 4, jack up the rear of the car and push on the wheel in the direction I want and then check to see if that made a difference somehow?

Since I want one rear wheel to gain a touch of neg. camber and the other to gain a touch of pos. camber, I'm thinking I may not need to install camber bolts. Thanks.

Dean was talking about the bolts at the joint between the spindle/upright (the part that the wheel hub, LCA, strut & steering tie rod are fastened to) and the bottom of the strut. Just loosen those two bolts, and there should be a little play so you can change the relative angle between the strut & spindle. Usually this joint is where "camber bolts"/"crash bolts"/"eccentric bolts" are installed, to controllably adjust wheel camber angle.

[Dean]

Not the main strut bolt in the center, the other three. You can loosen, and nudge. But thinking about it a little, there wasn't much play in those three holes on my car.

The spindle bolts are the ones where the camber bolts go down on the strut-spindle interface.