Disable MikeK's account???

[A1337STI]

It is doable with just a few DB Tables. its all in the table design , and the right SQL statements.

Seariously if someone can give me some Raw data files, or a sample of a raw data file I'll come up with a new set of tools. (or I'll find out how non-trivial it is)

and DUDE you can't be searious that you can't figure out 1 method of using a web app on a laptop with out a live net connection? (not that doing so would be ideal , i was more thinking of 1 data collection tool, 1 importer, and 1 web app)
Method #1 windows 2k advanced, install SQL 2k, run IIS, (windows xp pro won't work becuase you can't install a server instance of sql. course you could make the web app run on M$ Access, but i generally avoid that) run it all locally ...
Method #2 Design the data collection software to store offline, and to have an upload feature. and when that laptop gets to an internet connection it Then uploads the data...
Method #3 still have the results manually written down at the event, Input them into a computer when that person gets home.
Method #4 Write an email server and set it up on its own email address and have T&S send it emails Via cell phones
Method #5 (okay you got the point now i hope)

Nasa spent lots of man hours coming up with a pen that will work in 0 G. the soviets used pencils .... i commonly go for the pencil approach.

I'de fully understand if you don't trust the new guy with doing any official results, but a sample file to play with can't hurt (you can change out the real data if you want) or the Raw visual studio project files to your current app. (only briefly looked but that's either C# or VC++, and it looks more like C#) if so zip and send to alex@ridelaketahoe.com

[A1337STI]

is Scott going to hate me if i make a new program and it works ?

[Dean]

While Scott is right, the complexity of Solo timing and scoring is non trivial, we really could use some help!

Using the software is actually not that hard if you can type, and not want to bash the keyboard to hard when it does something stupid.

If you want to understand why this topic brings the three of us to a boil so quickly, I encourage you to voulenteer for T&S duty.

Get to the event early, and get your name down next to timing computer, timing paper or cone count.

You want to go above and beyond, take the initiative, and come out and learn to set up the lights, PA and so forth.

The more people that know how to do this stuff, the easier it is on event days for all of us.

If you want to help out on coding the scoring software, you have to understand the timing system first, and then the "rules" for scoring. Take a look at our supplemental regulations if you want to get your hands dirty.

If we actually have some interest, I would be happy to teach a T&S "class" before one of our meets. Say 6PM at Bully's some week.

We really would like more people who can see, think, react, and type working in the bus. Right now during some run groups, it is a refuge for people who don't want to, or can't work the course, and have marginal abilities to do some of the above list, and it kills us when it comes time to produce results in a timely manner.

If we could get a core 10 or so people who actually knew the system, and could operate many if not all of it's real time features, many of our reruns, missed cones, and other BS in T&S would magically disappear, and we would make that position one that you had to be pre approved to sign up for, kind of like safety steward.

So, if you want to help out, Step Up. Otherwise, you got no rights to complain about how long it takes us to publish results.

[Kevin M]

Pencil method= manually tabulating results and posting to website. 0 G pen=writing sweet software to do it.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

It is doable with just a few DB Tables. its all in the table design , and the right SQL statements.

Seariously if someone can give me some Raw data files, or a sample of a raw data file I'll come up with a new set of tools. (or I'll find out how non-trivial it is)

Raw data? You mean, like that stuff coming from the timing lights? You'll have to write an interface for that.

[sperry]

Alex:

First, I'd like to know how a web application is going to communicate with the timing lights, which is where we'd like to go w/ this software. I could be wrong but I don't think mysql/php has a way to spawn a thread to read from a serial port and write to shared memory.

The real solution to the problem is to write a windows application that doesn't require any rediculous steps like uploading scores via a cell phone or buying a new OS for the laptop as well as DBMS systems. Your options start at expensive and rediculous and end with pure retardation (the people running the bus have a hard time understanding the term "click the mouse"... you think they'll be able to mange debugging a cell-phone based internet connection? And who's paying for all that connectivity?).

And in general, running an "application" on a network designed to share text files will *always* be the zero-g pen and *never* the pencil. Using port 80 for anything beyond the serving of pure text documents is a hack. Hell, I'm surprised email even works.

Now I'm not trying to come down on your enthusiasm, but enthusiasm alone doesn't solve problems. You need experience w/ the problem 1st. You learn the current T&S software, the way season points are managed, be chief of timing and scoring for a season or two, and figure out when web services are useful vs. when regular applications are useful, and then we can talk about a new software development project. I thought it was easy too when I first took the job of T&S chief in 2004... it's not easy, it sucks, especially when the design requirements change every year. For now, the software I wrote will be updated to the new scoring rules before the next event, and will be plenty adequate for this years results.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Raw data? You mean, like that stuff coming from the timing lights? You'll have to write an interface for that.

I've already reverse engineered the timing hardware and have an API and test application for it. I just haven't done anything with it.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

is Scott going to hate me if i make a new program and it works ?

Just chill out a little. What appears to be trivial is not.

It's not about web servers on laptops, it's about dealing with the human component of this system, the poor basic design of the timing application, and last but not least, our convoluted rules for individual event and season scoring.

I can give you most if not all of last year's data, but without context, it will be mostly meaningless.

I'm glad you want to help, and personally would appreciate the help, but rather than just saying how easy it is to do, try understanding the problem first.

Pretend this is one of those sheets that you got in grammer school with all these instructions on them telling you to do a bunch of random stuff, but the first instruction was "read the entire sheet before doing anything", and the last said "ignore all other directions, and write your name on the piece of paper, and turn it over on your desk"

Don't be the kid singing "mary had a little lamb" and doing long division of a twelve digit number, instead, go read the scoring rules, and come back and ask questions...

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Dean

I encourage you to voulenteer for T&S duty.

... or something even remotely related to timing (or anything else)

... that's how I got the job!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeK

... or something even remotely related to timing (or anything else)

... that's how I got the job!

Dude, you volenteered for T&S chief, you said "I'll update the season results after each event". What do you think the T&S chief does?

[Nick Koan]

I think Mike agreed to upload the files after the T&S cheif was done with them

Now he's the dude who has to tabulate the results.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dude, you volenteered for T&S chief, you said "I'll update the season results after each event". What do you think the T&S chief does?

I guess I was T+S chief last year too then

What I really meant was that I didn't want to be the type of T+S chief who says things or does stuff. Plus there's no internet connection in the bus, so it's hard to pass the time.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I guess I was T+S chief last year too then

What I really meant was that I didn't want to be the type of T+S chief who says things or does stuff. Plus there's no internet connection in the bus, so it's hard to pass the time.

Filling out a spreadsheet too make sure you're winning PAX doesn't quite cut it as "updating the season results after each event".

[Dean]

Originally Posted by nKoan

I think Mike agreed to upload the files after the T&S cheif was done with them

Now he's the dude who has to tabulate the results.

Technically, I think Scott is right. Mike offered to do the season results.

But to do those you have to have the event data... So we enter the grey area...

We actually had a pretty good handle on getting event results out last year, but the new Street tire rules for this year are making it a bitch.

Should we have maybe done a little more planning and prep before the season started, yes... Are we paying the price now? Yes...

We will get a handle on it between the 3 or more of us. Just bear(or is it bare) with us.

[sperry]

Dean, like I mentioned earlier, I'm updating the software that was working well at the end of the season last year to handle the new rules. I'm also adding the ability to generate per-round results so we won't have to hand merge Street Tire classes w/ their parent classes.

Hell, we actually might be able to get away with using AXWare w/o ever entering names, all we really need are the class/number pairs and the times. Though, the announcer wouldn't get jack to talk about, since we both know how bad AXWare is about reporting things like run count if you haven't pre-entered a driver into the roster.

[A1337STI]

I never wrote that it was Easy; I did write I am in the belief with some raw data I could setup something that would work, which at some point in the system would include a Database.

Ya I’d like to see the results, but I honestly don't care if it takes 3 more weeks. I’m stoked to find a safe recreational outlet for driving. I'm stoked its so affordable, which is only due to volunteer work. Which I am very thankful for.

I find I work best when I start at the start and attempt to feel out the whole problem, (i.e. get what ever raw data it starts as and think of how to get to the end result) which was my goal here, I was hoping someone would just say "here's the raw data, take a look "

But Apparently this is a very sensitive toe I was about to Drive over, you could have saved a lot of typing (and a few unintentional jabs at your ego) by putting something like "This is a bit of a pet project of Mine, thanks for the offer, but no thanks"

and if its easier for you to accept, Okay its impossible And Cost prohibitive to integrate a DB with your system.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, like I mentioned earlier, I'm updating the software that was working well at the end of the season last year to handle the new rules. I'm also adding the ability to generate per-round results so we won't have to hand merge Street Tire classes w/ their parent classes.

Hell, we actually might be able to get away with using AXWare w/o ever entering names, all we really need are the class/number pairs and the times. Though, the announcer wouldn't get jack to talk about, since we both know how bad AXWare is about reporting things like run count if you haven't pre-entered a driver into the roster.

I understood that. All I was saying is that things were simpler last year, and though it sucked, we could get event results out of AXWare after only a small amount of head banging and some minor manipulation of the Street tire class. This year the new ST rules are far beyond anything AXWare can remotely handle.

The first events are always the worst becasue of all the changes. You guys were brave to not use last year's driver data at all. I'd be happy to do some cleanup and correlation of driver info back into AXWare if you want. And we have to enter the new info somewhere, so it may as well be in AXWare at the event.

All we need is the last raw event file to start the next one, so as long as we can get names and cars straightened out once, we should be fairly well off moving forward.

The problem we ran into last year was we kept using the same base membership file rather than using the last event, or updating the base file, so we had to make the same changes event after event.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

I never wrote that it was Easy; I did write I am in the belief with some raw data I could setup something that would work, which at some point in the system would include a Database.

Ya I’d like to see the results, but I honestly don't care if it takes 3 more weeks. I’m stoked to find a safe recreational outlet for driving. I'm stoked its so affordable, which is only due to volunteer work. Which I am very thankful for.

I find I work best when I start at the start and attempt to feel out the whole problem, (i.e. get what ever raw data it starts as and think of how to get to the end result) which was my goal here, I was hoping someone would just say "here's the raw data, take a look "

But Apparently this is a very sensitive toe I was about to Drive over, you could have saved a lot of typing (and a few unintentional jabs at your ego) by putting something like "This is a bit of a pet project of Mine, thanks for the offer, but no thanks"

and if its easier for you to accept, Okay its impossible And Cost prohibitive to integrate a DB with your system.

Alex, you just don't get it... Nobody wants to do this, and it's nobody's pet project. We hate the software, and the fact that it makes us jump through rediculous hoops.

What we are trying to say is walk before you run. The reason this software sucks so bad is that Vitek, the guy who wrote did a lot of things similar to what you are describing, and didn't think about the ramifications.

The data from a couple last year events are attached... Knock yourself out... But don't ask us for any context, or help understanding the issues, because that's not how you roll...

Use Windows Jet DBs, they are free. Don't forget to assume that the data for the next event will be completely different.

I was young, and knew everything once too....

Enjoy...

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

...Method #1 windows 2k advanced, install SQL 2k, run IIS, (windows xp pro won't work becuase you can't install a server instance of sql. course you could make the web app run on M$ Access, but i generally avoid that) run it all locally ...

We use web app locally on our laptops.

WinXP Pro w/ IIS. MSDE for the database. MSDE has a 2GB database limit and slows itself down when more than 5 connections to it are opened.

Java GUI --> IIS --> MSDE

Then later if you need to expand you can move up to SQL Server.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3

We use web app locally on our laptops.

WinXP Pro w/ IIS. MSDE for the database. MSDE has a 2GB database limit and slows itself down when more than 5 connections to it are opened.

Java GUI --> IIS --> MSDE

Then later if you need to expand you can move up to SQL Server.

Cool, now who pays for that? The SCCA laptop came with XP Home, and no one's paying for the upgrade.

Also, the idea of writing and testing a web application to be used locally makes me want to eat my own face. There are development tools and languages that are about 1000 times better than what you get w/ a web interface designed specifically for writing local applications. Just because you can get something to work as a "web application" does not make it the correct solution. Web apps are still about 20 years behind the curve as far as user interface capabilities when compared to true native applications.

Everyone together now: "The best way to write a windows application is to write a windows application." It's not: "Create an online database, write a script that accesses the database, implement a flash interface that gives you a slick (non-standard) GUI but only works on Internet Explorer and only if you have the latest updates, create a downloadable Java app that will talk to the serial port for timing I/O but only if the user has administrator privledges and has updated to the latest version of Java from Sun, interface the Java comms app to the flash page, and wrap the whole thing into a complicated cookies-based state machine that will never be 100% stable because the web is inherently stateless. Oh and nevermind the security issues that will allow anyone with an associated degree in 'web guruism' to enter their own run times into the database at will."

Dan, if your business thinks local web apps are the way to go, someone at your company should be fired IMO. The *only* reason to go that route is if you already had the web software written and you're using it while someone implements a local version.

Sorry to rant, but this is a pet peeve of mine... The internet is a fucking mess. Basic web browsing (plain old text and pictures) is pretty good, and the whole message board thing is pretty well sorted out. Online shopping is getting pretty close to decent (mostly just out of necessity) but is still very hit-or-miss based on the vendor. However, in general, the internet is chock full of terrible code, poor design practices, awful user interfaces, and security holes large enough to barrel roll a triple-7 through. Having done both apps and web development for the last 10 years, choosing to keep that web-based shit off my local system is a no-brainer. There is no reason to install $1000 in licenses, 15 GB of software, and 7 different supporting applications (that all need to be constantly updated online), and one hacked together web-app just to get the functionality that a 200k C++ Builder app that took 15 hours to design, implement, test and debug is insane.

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dan, if your business thinks local web apps are the way to go, someone at your company should be fired IMO. The *only* reason to go that route is if you already had the web software written and you're using it while someone implements a local version.

LOLLERZ <----I hope you hate that as much as I do.


I didn't say what we did here was pretty. I just wanted to make the suggestion of a server OS and SQL server slightly more affordable.

(the controllers we work with use the java inteface and the manufactuer decided to make the offline programming tool similar to the live device)

Agreed. Make a real windows app.