Harness bar

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by sperry

What's the smaller horizontal flat peice for?

[MPREZIV]

Oh SURELY I'd be getting the welded cage, and in fact likely welding it into the car too. As I mentioned before, the Cusco "bolt in roll cage" scares the crap out of me!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3

What's the smaller horizontal flat peice for?

That's the tube for harness mounting... it's not flat, it just looks like it is.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

That's the tube for harness mounting... it's not flat, it just looks like it is.

I think the harnesses get mounted to the main cross tube, not the small one in the driver headrest area, but I could be mistaken.

[MPREZIV]

Yeah, I believe the harnesses mount to the big cross bar. Don't know what that little piece of flat stock behind your head is...

[sybir]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

Yeah, I believe the harnesses mount to the big cross bar. Don't know what that little piece of flat stock behind your head is...

Seatback brace, for aluminum racing shells (Kirkleys, etc)

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by sybir

Seatback brace, for aluminum racing shells (Kirkleys, etc)

Makes sense. Didn't think of that!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I think the harnesses get mounted to the main cross tube, not the small one in the driver headrest area, but I could be mistaken.

Originally Posted by Autopower website

RACE ROLL BAR
The Race roll bar is designed for solo, autocross and high speed time trials. All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube.

You don't want to mount the harnesses significantly lower than the seat back holes... that large lower crossbar is at about lumbar height... too low for the harnesses, hence the harness specific tube up higher.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by sybir

Seatback brace, for aluminum racing shells (Kirkleys, etc)

In the picture I posted, there is no seat back brace.

Here's one w/ a brace:

[sybir]

I thought that upper loop was for fixing a bracket to the top of a racing shell, as opposed to the adjustable one that mounts on the harness bar.

Not sure what other purpose it would serve.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by sybir

I thought that upper loop was for fixing a bracket to the top of a racing shell, as opposed to the adjustable one that mounts on the harness bar.

Not sure what other purpose it would serve.

A seat bracket needs to be adjustable fore/aft, unless you never plan on being able to adjust the seat's location.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

A seat bracket needs to be adjustable fore/aft, unless you never plan on being able to adjust the seat's location.

Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts and possible drilling of holes as adjustment. 2nd drivers either suffer, or have alternate padding or molded foam inserts.

I remember one race, Boris Said was filling in at the last minute for somebody driving with his knees basically around his arms with his helmet hitting the roof...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts and possible drilling of holes as adjustment. 2nd drivers either suffer, or have alternate padding or molded foam inserts.

I remember one race, Boris Said was filling in at the last minute for somebody driving with his knees basically around his arms with his helmet hitting the roof...

Race seat brackets, even the "fixed" brackets, have multiple holes in them for adjustment purposes. Of course you can't adjust them mid-race (which is where the pad swapping comes in), but you certainly want/need to be able to adjust the seat. Welding a seat into the car w/ zero ability to move it is a dumb idea.

Here's the RaceTech brackets:



You can move them for/aft via the bolts through the floor, and adjust height/tilt with the side mount bolts into the seats.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

You can move them for/aft via the bolts through the floor, and adjust height/tilt with the side mount bolts into the seats.

Bolts, yes Bolts... many bolts... I heard that somewhere...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I don't know what that dinky little upper bracket pictured on the driver's side is, but it's not like any harness mount I've ever seen. Good luck if you try that...

Harnesses should mount to the main cross tube if possible. If the roll bar/cage & seat are designed and installed properly your shoulder straps should be at the correct angle. If for some reason it's not possible with a particular car then you can weld in a separate harness tube behind the seat slots; it shouldn't look like what's pictured there though...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Bolts, yes Bolts... many bolts... I heard that somewhere...

Are you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I think it's okay to bolt in a seat, but not a roll cage? How much load does a 200lb person put on a seat in a wreck, vs. the load a 3300lb car puts on the cage? With the proper back plates and bolts, a seat can be bolted down just fine.

As far as the belt mount. I've seen it done that way before... but I can't tell from the picture if the piece they're using is adequate or not. It may be a solid bar, not a tube, in which case, it would be pretty hefty.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

My original statement was "Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts..." Your response then went on to enumerate the bolts and show pretty pictures of the brackets the bolts went into.. and then proceded to imply I had suggested welding in a seat... which I clearly had not.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

My original statement was "Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts..." Your response then went on to enumerate the bolts and show pretty pictures of the brackets the bolts went into.. and then proceded to imply I had suggested welding in a seat... which I clearly had not.

Once again, I have to summarize another Dean argument:

Dean: "That harness bar is for bolting to the seat back."
Scott: "No it's not, if it were the seat wouldn't be adjustable at all."
Dean: "Real race seats aren't adjustable!"
Scott: "They are adjustable via the bolts in the brackets and the adjustable seat back bracket."
Dean: "I said seats were adjustable via the bolts!"

Did I miss anything?

Bottom line, if you planned to attach the seat to that welded in bar, all the bolts in the world won't let you move that seat. You have to have an adjustable seat-back brace, like the one in the 2nd picture I posted. Then you're not drilling holes and whatnot to adjust the seat, you're using the holes designed into the seat brackets, and adjusting the back brace as necessary.

[Double Phister]

.......so what's the little flat stock peice for?

[Dean]

Try again Scott. I never said anything about the top bar other than not knowing what it was for.

The lower bar is for harnesses. You can follow the progression on the same damn Autopower Web site if you would care to.

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollbars.asp

Please note the second picture:and it's second bullet:

Bolt-in harness mount tube for easy installation of safety harnesses.

No little bar in the picture, they must be talking about the big one!!!

I still do not know what the purpuse of the top bar is. Aaron suggested it was for seat backs, not I.

I would not trust a belt only secured to that small of a bar. If you don't beleive me, normlly you belive Austin... Aparently not this time.

I said adjustable = bolts.
You said adjustable = bolts.
You went over the edge talking about welding, etc...

Clearly you are right. I need more stickers.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Try again Scott.

Okay will do.

I never said anything about the top bar other than not knowing what it was for... I still do not know what the purpuse of the top bar is. Aaron suggested it was for seat backs, not I.

I responded to Aaron about the seat back use. You argued that seats don't move, which implied you were agreeing with the bar being usable for seat back mounting. I said using a fixed mount for the seat back would be dumb because you could never move the seat even though the brackets would normally allow it.

Originally Posted by Dean

The lower bar is for harnesses. You can follow the progression on the same damn Autopower Web site if you would care to.

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/rollbars.asp

Please note the second picture:and it's second bullet: No little bar in the picture, they must be talking about the big one!!!

The actual wording was "All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube." I figure some applications require a second bar for proper belt angle, while others use the main bar. If the larger horizontal is indeed the "harness mount tube", and therefore isn't included in *every* roll hoop, then I would be scared to use any one of the roll bars that are missing that horizontal.

Originally Posted by Dean

I would not trust a belt only secured to that small of a bar. If you don't beleive me, normlly you belive Austin... Aparently not this time.

Like I said, I can't tell what that upper bar is made of. If it's not strong enough for belts, then I certainly wouldn't attach the belts there! All I know is that I've seen cages with a bar in that location specifically for mounting the belts to.

Originally Posted by Dean

I said adjustable = bolts.
You said adjustable = bolts.
You went over the edge talking about welding, etc...

Sure, you said that seats can be moved via their mounting bolts. But you had also argued that the upper crossbar could be a seat bracket. If you're going to attach the seat to an immovable, welded in back bracket, no amount of bolts on the seat bottom will allow it to be moved.

Anyway, all this is pretty moot, and here's why, that bar isn't for belts or for the seat back:



That's the bolt in cage, in an Impreza wagon. The upper bar is way higher than I thought from the other picture. It's also solid metal, and not a round like I thought it was. So it's pretty beefy, but I wouldn't attach harnesses to it. The larger horizontal it a little lower than I'd want for harnesses (at least being as tall as I am) but it would work if you had a proper seat. So, I really don't know what that upper bar is for... as is in the photo, it really wouldn't add much strength to the cage... if it's supposed to reinforce the diagonal bar's connection with the main hoop, I think it would just shear due to the 90 angles on it during a rollover, instead of help out much. Maybe it's for a camera mount?

With that said, I wouldn't buy this cage. Certainly not the bolt in one. I don't like the bolt ends of all the pieces, or the slip fit of the c-pillar to main hoop bar. Hell, that won't even pass SCCA rules, as I believe all slip fits must be 8" overlap and double bolted. Additionally, that diagonal is in a position that will severely limit the passenger seat's location. You'll never be able to tilt it back more than like one click from upright. The passenger seats are already taller than the driver seats... so much for ever having a passenger over 5'6" at an autocross. With a helmet on, it'd be impossible to sit there w/o hitting your head on the ceiling. Maybe the weld-in cage for the coupe is a lot better, but I'd have to see exactly how it fits before I'd say it's a good idea.

Originally Posted by Dean

Clearly you are right. I need more stickers.

Don't we all!

[Dean]

Scott, do you even bother to click links, or go back in the thread to see who said what?

If you go look at the bloody second bullet on the second bloody picture titled 'STREET-SPORT ROLL BAR' it says "Bolt-in harness mount tube for easy installation of safety harnesses."

It does not say

Originally Posted by SPERRY

"All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube."

And If I said the upper bar was a seat bracket, please provide the quote. IT WAS AARON!!!

Most any main roll hoop with a single diagonal bar limit passenger seat travel. If it bent around the seat, it would not be a diagonal bar. Though the Autopower web site does not have a footnote saying the seat travel is affected on the 01 Impreza line like it does for others, but I agree it would.

Are self stick address label stickers charities send you in the mail good for .01 or .1 horsepower? I got a whole sheet of them suckers!!!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Scott, do you even bother to click links, or go back in the thread to see who said what?

Nope. Why would I go back to click links that I originally posted? ...I've been there already.

Originally Posted by Dean

If you go look at the bloody second bullet on the second bloody picture titled 'STREET-SPORT ROLL BAR' it says "Bolt-in harness mount tube for easy installation of safety harnesses."

It does not say...

Never were we talking about the "Street-Sport Roll Bar". Always were we talking about the "Race Roll Bar", where it absolutely says: "All Race roll bars have a diagonal cross brace and most have a harness mount tube." Who cares what the for-looks-only bars have on them?

Originally Posted by Dean

And If I said the upper bar was a seat bracket, please provide the quote. IT WAS AARON!!!

Here you go:

Originally Posted by dean

Real race seats are not adjustable unles you consider the removal of many bolts and possible drilling of holes as adjustment. 2nd drivers either suffer, or have alternate padding or molded foam inserts.

I remember one race, Boris Said was filling in at the last minute for somebody driving with his knees basically around his arms with his helmet hitting the roof...

So yes, Aaron suggested the bar was for a seat brace. Then *you* argued with me. If Aaron says "A is true", and I say "no A is false", and you say "scott is wrong with regards to A", you are in fact also saying that "A is true". Elementary school logic.

If Aaron called me a drooling incoherent retard, and I said "no I'm not"... shouldn't I be offended if you say "yes you are"? Sure, you never explicitly called me a retard, but you sure implied it.

God, what a waste of time this thread has become. Maybe it's the 6 courses in logic and argumentation I took in college, coupled with the 15 odd years of computer programming... but I don't see why people have such a hard time with following along with a sequence of events. I guess it's my fault for over simplifying my summary back in post #43. I will agree, you didn't explicitly say the bar was far a seat brace. But you certainly did argue that's what it was for.

Anyway, I'm going to go home now... this thread has been another Scott v Dean semantic nightmare thread. One day I'll stop caring when others can't follow an argument, and resort to plain old personal attacks instead of attempting to clarify and re-clarify what's already plainly laid out in the thread. Arguing about arguing is easily the stupidest and most useless thing I've done this year.

[Dean]

Perhaps you need to go back to one of those logic classes.

Arron said A

You said Not A because B

I said Not B

Not B <> A

And I made a specific quote of a specific bullet clearly described and noting the progression down the said page I LINKED. If you choose to not follow the link and end up quoting some other portion of the page, it is not my fault.

You get into these situations because you do not take the time to read what people write and make assumptions about what people's intent was.

If you peel used stamps off of envelopes, they are like miniature stickers and worth more HP if you put them on your car.

[tysonK]

Dean your side profile stats are cracking me up, ha.