camber problems

[IheartSTI]

my car has been getting positive camber for a while and i wanted to know if anyone elses STI's are doing the same.

[MattR]

I don't know how the car can "get " positive camber.

[tysonK]

Camber.

So you are talking about the postion of the wheel/tire and not a driving characteristic right?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

More description than that is required to solve a problem over the intarweb.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

I don't know how the car can "get " positive camber.

The alignment ninjas are sneaking into his garage at night and adding camber.

[qksubi]

Its those springs you put on

[MattR]

Scott...we will need a visual aid of "Alignment Ninjas"

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

Scott...we will need a visual aid of "Alignment Ninjas"

[Dean]

Originally Posted by scoobanader

my car has been getting positive camber for a while and i wanted to know if anyone elses STI's are doing the same.

Stop side swiping curbs would be my first thought...? Seriously, we need more info. Positive camber for the most part doesn't just magically appear unless something major is loose or broken like a lateral link, control arm, strut bolt, etc...

[Libila]

I have a feeling it is a result of the addition of new coilovers. I dont know the details though, Sam needs to respond back.

If the coilovers arnt the cause, it must be the Alignment Ninjas.

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by Dean

Stop side swiping curbs would be my first thought...? Seriously, we need more info. Positive camber for the most part doesn't just magically appear unless something major is loose or broken like a lateral link, control arm, strut bolt, etc...

maybe its not positive camber. sorry if all my car talk grammer is not right, thats why i am trying to learn...but the inside of my tires have way more tred then the outside....

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by Dean

Stop side swiping curbs would be my first thought...? Seriously, we need more info. Positive camber for the most part doesn't just magically appear unless something major is loose or broken like a lateral link, control arm, strut bolt, etc...

i think my alignment would be way off if i were "side swiping curbs" before i had done anything to the car i have been getting realy realy bad ware on the outside of the tire.

[Libila]

Sam, in your first post you said you were getting wear on the INSIDE of the tire, then the second post you said you are getting wear on the OUTSIDE of the tire. Which is it?

[sperry]

Since this is the tech thread, I'll reply here...

Originally Posted by scoobanader

i got coilovers from guilbert for 100 bucks so i went ahead and bought them because i knew i could sell them for more then that if i did not like them. when my car was stock i was having camber problems. i had positve camber so i decided to lower my car with new springs so i could get a litter better tire ware and it would look a little more agressive. the car still had ware on the outside of the tires and i was able to notice by eaye that it still had a little bt of positve camber and guilbert from guilsons said he had a set of ground control coil overs for a 100 bucks. so i went ahead and got them and installed them. the car now has a little bit of negitve camber witch i want but because of the height of my car(very low) my stock struts are not doing them what i want them to do, so i am going to go with the tenabe 5way ajustable struts. the cars alinement is fine but the car is a little bouncy. i took a couple corners to see if the car handled better...it did handle slightly better but i did not put the new coils in the back yet(just the lowering springs due from lack of time) so the car is getting some understeer. i think when i do the coils in the back it will tighten up the rear of the car so it will be a little looser(right?!?) i am sure with the new struts with the ground control coil overs it will do the job for right now, it will give it a little better handling, more agressive stance and get rid of my positve camber problems...in responce to libala, i need some new brake pads, mine are prety wore out, and as well as the tires.

1st... I swear to god, this looks like an ESL student... if I were your english teacher, I'd fail you. It's been said before, on a forum all we have to go by is your written word, the way you type directly effects the results and replies you get. Typos, minor mistakes, occasional spelling error... no big deal... but this is pretty hard to read. However, I think I know what you're trying to say so I'll answer as best as I can.

I'm assuming the GC "coilovers" you got are height adjustable sleeves and springs, yes? If that's the case, you need to be careful with the height you choose to run them at. Lowering the car may make it look better, and may make the handling seem better, but chances are it's not going to grip nearly as well as it did stock.

1st of all the stock struts are designed to work with a particular spring rate, at a particular height. When you stray too far from these parameters, the stock struts are forced to operate in a way they weren't designed to handle.

Let's look at spring rates. If you go up a lot in spring rate on stock struts, you end up over-powering the strut's ability to prevent bounce. Many people believe that the stock STi struts are a little to hard for the stock springs, so you probably have a bit of room to go for a stiffer spring than on other cars, but I'll bet anything more than 10% - 15% stiffer is too stiff and will lead to underdamping. Reports are that the STi pink springs (like the ones MattR put on his STi) are actually the best match to the STi struts... they're just slightly stiffer than the stock springs. (I don't remember the rates, if anyone knows them post 'em up!)

Now let's look at the ride height. A strut is designed to be at a certain length when it's at rest. At this "ideal" height there is adequate throw on both the compression and rebound side of the strut. When you lower the car excessively, the strut is forces to rest at a shorter length than it was designed to. So when you hit bumps, not only is the valving potentially not quite right to damp the spring, you also have a much greater chance of running out of travel and hitting the bump-stop. Plus when the strut is operated at a less than ideal length, you will wear it out much quicker than normal.

So, if you're using the GC's with a stiff spring at a low ride height, you will probably get a harsh, bouncy ride, and quickly wear out the stock struts.

However, there are some advantages to a GC sleeve setup. Because they are height adjustable, you can use that and a set of automotive scales to corner weight the car. If you use springs close to the OEM spring rates, as well as leave the ride height near stock levels, then get the car corner balanced, you will have a handling demon. The STi has terrific suspension right out of the box (save the excessive understeer that Subaru builds into it). By going a bit stiffer, and getting things balanced, the car should handle well, for relatively cheap.

Getting to the alignment and tire wear issues. You used to have lowering springs on the car, yes? IIRC they were pretty low too, weren't they? Anytime you lower the car, you will run into alignment issues. Without camber bolts and/or adjustable strut tops and/or adjustable lateral links, you will probably end up with camber outside of the stock specs. Specifically, IIRC, Subaru's tend to gain positive camber when lowered too much... (that sounds contrary to what I would think would happen, but that's been my experience). So you could have been out of alignment due to your lowering springs... and going even lower with the GC's would be even worse. Positive camber will indeed wear the outsides of the tires, plus it will also generate toe-in with is also bad for the tires. Also, hard driving on a "street" alignment will result in worn outsides of the tires.

So, if you really want to go low there are some things you need to do.

1) Get struts that are matched to the height and spring rate you plan to use.

2) Use stiffer springs to prevent bottoming out

3) Use camber bolts, adjustable strut tops, and/or adjustable lateral links (in the rear) to deal with the camber issues.

It sounds like you've got #2 taken care of with the GTC sleeves/springs. You mentioned going to some adjustable struts. If they're matched properly with the GC's then you've got #1 covered, and that will make a world of difference. I'm not sure if the GC's came with adjustable strut tops (doesn't sound like it at that price). GC makes some great caster/camber strut tops that would work with the sleeves and struts, and that would take care of the camber issues up front. I'm using H&R camber bolts in the rear of my car to help with the camber... you might want to try those, or some adjustable lateral links in the rear like Dean's using are another good solution, albeit much more expensive (but they have other advantages too).

Finally, you should talk to Nate at S-Squared... he's the man (used to work for Ground Control developing suspension kits for cars). Not only can he get your car lower than shit, he can make it handle too. You should see how low his shop car is, and it's on GC sleeves, GC top mounts, and Koni inserts IIRC... a very similar setup to what you're working on.

[Dean]

On almost every macpherson (sp?) strut car, as soon as outside of the lower A or control arm gets above perpendicular, any additional lowering will cause an increase in camber. Anywhere below perpendicular, camber decreases as the car is lowered. This is basic geometry. There is a drawing on Debbie's white board if anybody wants to see it...

I could try in paint, but I am no Sybir...

This is the reason slamming a macpherson strut car is often not the greatest thing for handling. the lower it is, the faster things go positive as the suspension compresses.

Otherwise, everything Scott said...

[Dean]

I knew there was something else...

in general, as you increase the stiffness of the springs, you want to decrease bump damping, and increase rebound damping.

This is why slapping a heavy spring over a stock damper is bad... It will probably have to much bump causing the car to jar harder on bumps, and not enough rebound so it keeps bouncing...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

I knew there was something else...

in general, as you increase the stiffness of the springs, you want to decrease bump damping, and increase rebound damping.

I don't necessarily agree with this methodology...

1st - That's directly the opposite of what many racing damper mfg's are designing for these days. While I don't believe in doing things just because other people do it, it's something to consider since they have lots of R&D resources at their disposal and know some things we don't.

2nd - If you need to add damping force there are some theoretical benefits to adding bump as opposed to rebound, such as reducing the tendency to lift up an inside wheel during sharp, quick transitions. If you reduce bump resistance too much you also start increasing the likelyhood of bottoming over heavy bumps & dips.

3rd - Most of this conversation is irrelevant without knowing the baseline force/velocity characteristics of what you're starting out with, and a thorough understanding of the car's behavior at the grip limits over bumps & dips.

[Dean]

What you say is true, but what we are talking about right now isa car driven on the street.

High bump damping is unlikely to give the ride characteristecs most people expect from a street car, and low rebound damoing resulting in bouncing is also not something most drivers want on the street.

Either way, if you only have one knob, and it only has 5 positions that adjust one or both in some fashion, it is probably only going to work for spring rates designed for that damper. Changing spring rates significantly on the stock non-adjustble dampers is likely going to produce something that is not at all optimal.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

What you say is true, but what we are talking about right now isa car driven on the street.

Good point.. I tend to look at everything as a racecar now.

[STIguy]

Originally Posted by sperry

Is this Sperry guy a dick or is the guy with the camber problems an idiot....or both

[Kevin M]

Uhhh... this "sperry guy" is the admin of the forum and the single biggest reason we all know each other, compete against each other (and the rest of the Reno region) and hang out together. No, he's not a dick, and no, scoobanader isn't an idiot. Read the "ATTN: new members" sticky in OT... there are two types of new members around here, and only one sticks around for long...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by STIguy

Is this Sperry guy a dick or is the guy with the camber problems an idiot....or both

I was just joking w/ Sam about his "spontanious" camber changes... and since my load at work was light, I 'chopped up the "Alignment Ninja".

If you continue reading, I did reply with a fairly detailed post in which I tried to not only help Sam with his specific issues, but also provide some general tech for anyone else playing with their suspension. Granted, I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the board when it comes to this stuff (we've got some *real* engineers on here, not just me w/ my "software" engineering degree), but I do try to explain what I know to be true to help everyone out.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

I was just joking w/ Sam about his "spontanious" camber changes... and since my load at work was light, I 'chopped up the "Alignment Ninja".

Plus, I believe the collective 'we' wanted a visual. Those of us who follow the board regularly know these things as a theme ...

STIguy: welcome. But beware of calling out any of our users until you get to know them. We can get very defensive.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by STIguy

Is this Sperry guy a dick or is the guy with the camber problems an idiot....or both

Haha

[IheartSTI]

Originally Posted by STIguy

Is this Sperry guy a dick or is the guy with the camber problems an idiot....or both

I dont think sperry is a dick i just think he jokes around with me because i am not as well educated as some of the guys. i also dont think i am an idiot i am just somone who is young trying to figure out how to set up a car...everyone have to start somewhere..right? i think i know a good amount of things considering my age and how long i have been hands on with my car....yes there are 10490352095 things i need to learn how do do but one problem at a time i will learn more.

anyways does anyone know if tein has made the FLEX for an 05 STI?