Harness options

[doubleurx]

I am thinking about getting either 4-point or 5-point and once again find my self brainless on the subject. After getting so many rides with these belts, I love the feel on the track compared to the stock belts. Helps me stop looking like such an old man leaning forward.

questions:
1. Do I need a harness bar or do they make them so they attach to the rear seats? (I think I remember Dean's car was setup that way)
2. Are they permanent or easily removed for the factory belts for daily driving?
3. Where have you all purchased them and what am I looking at spending?
4. Are they easy to install?

Any input greatly appreciated.

[Kevin M]

There are plenty of good options. One of the most popular in our circle is the Schroth harness setup, which is DOT legal for raod use. I think they're around $150, bolt right in, and do the job well.

However I, being a cheap bastard, found a 5 point latch-and-lock harness from racerwholesale.com for about $70. My only complaint is that I got a pull-down lap setup instead of pull-up style. Otherwise, I like it. I am about to move it over to the passenger side though, as I understand that many instructors at places like Audi Club events won't ride with you if they don't have a similar belt setup. So I'm shopping for a cam-lock style 5 point harness with pull-up lap belts to put on the driver's side.

Installing a belt and/or harness bar system is simple, just a matter of removing and replacing a few bolts. They all use existing mounting points.

[doubleurx]

So once in, you pretty much don't use the stock belts anymore for daily use?

I'll check it out.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

So once in, you pretty much don't use the stock belts anymore for daily use?

I'll check it out.

No, the Schroth ones don't replace your stock seatbelts, you can use either or (both is not recomended)

[Kevin M]

No, I always use my stock belts unless I'm autocrossing or on the track. They're safer.

[MikeK]

I have been told that harnesses are only for when there is no chance of rolling the car, like autocross. At track days/solo I you should stick to the stock seatbelts unless you have a roll cage, because if you go off course and roll the car, when the roof gets dented in and you can't move sideways in your seat your neck will get damaged.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I have been told that harnesses are only for when there is no chance of rolling the car, like autocross. At track days/solo I you should stick to the stock seatbelts unless you have a roll cage, because if you go off course and roll the car, when the roof gets dented in and you can't move sideways in your seat your neck will get damaged.

You heard correctly...I feel the same way, As much as I'd like to use my harnesses on the track, I would prefer to be able to bend to the side.

There's some good tricks to tighten your seat belt so it stays, that's the best bet for stock belts.

I would like to get a harness bar I don't know who to contact for that though.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by MattR

There's some good tricks to tighten your seat belt so it stays, that's the best bet for stock belts.

Yeah, I just twist it up and pull the twist through the buckle. That works okay, but I'm also looking at a CG Lock and possibly some harnesses as well (only for auto-x).

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Yeah, I just twist it up and pull the twist through the buckle. That works okay, but I'm also looking at a CG Lock and possibly some harnesses as well (only for auto-x).

I was checking that out as well. $70 for both sides and seems simple. There's also the trick Dean showed me:

Move your seat back all the way, put on the seatbelt, then slide the seat forward to your position. That does the same thing as the CG, but also tightens the shoulder belt, just doesn't look as cool as the harness.

I guess looking cool in a harness with a broken neck isn't really all that cool.

Thanks for all the info, I guess I'll be stickin' to stock belts then.

[zpeed]

I have a used 5 point harness TRW Sabelt Red it's a Y type cam lock for $50 ??.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Yeah, I just twist it up and pull the twist through the buckle. That works okay, but I'm also looking at a CG Lock and possibly some harnesses as well (only for auto-x).

Do not do this!!!

Seat belts need to be *flat* or they can fail in an incident. Ever hear of a fella named Dale Earnhardt? This impact w/ the wall that killed his was esitmated to be approximately 35mph. The problem that that he liked his seat so low that his belts did not loop through the buckles nice and flat, causing the belt to "dump" and fail, which sent the back of his head steering wheel at 35mph, killing him pretty much instantly.

Do not "fold" your belts to get them to tighten!! Follow the procedure outlined by doubleurx... it's know around here as "the seatbelt trick" and it works really well.

[bruspeed]

Originally Posted by MattR

I would like to get a harness bar I don't know who to contact for that though.

Sparco makes one that bolts in, although, I do not know if it replaces the factory belts. Also, I've heard they are pricey

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I have been told that harnesses are only for when there is no chance of rolling the car, like autocross. At track days/solo I you should stick to the stock seatbelts unless you have a roll cage, because if you go off course and roll the car, when the roof gets dented in and you can't move sideways in your seat your neck will get damaged.

This the reason the Scroth is the only one with DOT certification. If you look, there are a couple folds of belt in a little plastic thingy on the inside shoulder belt that will fail under significant impact allowing your body to rotate and bend.

It is the only 4 or more point belt system I would use in a car without a cage.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by sperry

Do not do this!!!

Seat belts need to be *flat* or they can fail in an incident. Ever hear of a fella named Dale Earnhardt? This impact w/ the wall that killed his was esitmated to be approximately 35mph. The problem that that he liked his seat so low that his belts did not loop through the buckles nice and flat, causing the belt to "dump" and fail, which sent the back of his head steering wheel at 35mph, killing him pretty much instantly.

Do not "fold" your belts to get them to tighten!! Follow the procedure outlined by doubleurx... it's know around here as "the seatbelt trick" and it works really well.

Whoops. I thought that *was* the seatbelt trick. I can't really do the real seatbelt trick reliably with electric seats. I've tried, but it really isn't a decent solution.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

This the reason the Scroth is the only one with DOT certification. If you look, there are a couple folds of belt in a little plastic thingy on the inside shoulder belt that will fail under significant impact allowing your body to rotate and bend.

It is the only 4 or more point belt system I would use in a car without a cage.

No, the "Folds" are there for reducing the instantaneous decelration forces when you hit something. If you are using a Schroth harness on a late model WRX, and you roll over, you're much worse off than if you were in OEM belts. In any other type of colliision, they're great though. Rollover protection is the only difference.

That being said, I personally will continue to use my harnesses at the track. I think the tradeoff of better car control versus the miniscule chance I'll roll my car is worth it. Just my $.02 though and I don't disagree with anybody who chooses not to use theirs at the track.

zpeed, is that belt a pull-up or pull-down lap type? If it's the pull-up type, I'll take it.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

No, the "Folds" are there for reducing the instantaneous decelration forces when you hit something. If you are using a Schroth harness on a late model WRX, and you roll over, you're much worse off than if you were in OEM belts. In any other type of colliision, they're great though. Rollover protection is the only difference.

You are correct about not being significant help in pure rollover or other accident withour sufficient impact to fail thet bundle, but please go read the Schroth web site.

The folds are there to allow the upper body to fold and roll to some extent under impact to avoid submarining and move the body away from the sides of the vehicle. If they were strictly for deceleration, the folds would be on both sides and/or the rear point would not be sewn solid, and they would not be side specific.

[sperry]

That's interesting info Dean. I always figured that the DOT wouldn't have approved them if they were somehow less safe than stock seatbelts... but the basic logic behind a tensioned belt keeping you upright seemed pretty solid. It's nice to hear there's actually some engineering applied to the roll-over problem!

Now I don't feel so bad about wearing my Schroth belts at the track.

[Kevin M]

I read up, and the Schroth belts are definitely good stuff. Rollovers aside, they seem like an absolutely excellent option.

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by sperry

That's interesting info Dean. I always figured that the DOT wouldn't have approved them if they were somehow less safe than stock seatbelts... but the basic logic behind a tensioned belt keeping you upright seemed pretty solid. It's nice to hear there's actually some engineering applied to the roll-over problem!

Now I don't feel so bad about wearing my Schroth belts at the track.

Great, so now what? I think I may get these belts. At the last Audi event, I took rides in 4 cars and they all had them and only one car had a roll cage.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

Great, so now what? I think I may get these belts. At the last Audi event, I took rides in 4 cars and they all had them and only one car had a roll cage.

I've used my belts at track events, and felt guilty because I thought I was trading roll-over safety for comfort. However, if Schroth really has engineered some roll-over protection into their belts I won't hesitate to wear them at the track in the future.

The bottom line is this: racing and high-speed driving is dangerous. You're taking a risk every time you go out there... no amount of safety equipment will ever protect you 100%. So, do the research, find out what your options are, and make an educated decision.

Personally, I think the belts are probably as safe is stock belts, or they wouldn't have received DOT approval as a legal replacement. But that's my decision, for my own safety. If anyone wishes to ride in my car, the stock belts will always be available, until I get a cage, in which case stock belts are actually less safe than a full harness.

[MattR]

So, I witnessed a fellow autocrosser (who will remain nameless) actually put the seatbelt on, then put this strap thing, like a big belt, around his ribs and around the back of the seat, then cinch it down. I'd hate to have an incident with some contraption like that in use. (It was someone who co-drove my car)

As far as the Scroth's on the track, that is very cool. I think for the HPDE's and such, I may try them. I love the way the Scroth's hold me in place.

[doubleurx]

Originally Posted by MattR

So, I witnessed a fellow autocrosser (who will remain nameless) actually put the seatbelt on, then put this strap thing, like a big belt, around his ribs and around the back of the seat, then cinch it down. I'd hate to have an incident with some contraption like that in use. (It was someone who co-drove my car)

As far as the Scroth's on the track, that is very cool. I think for the HPDE's and such, I may try them. I love the way the Scroth's hold me in place.

Man at that point you might as well dowse yourself in lighter fluid before you start the car.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by doubleurx

Man at that point you might as well dowse yourself in lighter fluid before you start the car.

I like to bolt a large spike in place of my airbag. I feel it really lends to the "holy shit, don't fuck up" aspect to my driving.

[dknv]

Matt - I think the belt you're referring to is a torso belt - Racerwholesale sells them. I think they are fine for autox. I'm not sure I would use it for track though.

http://www.racerwholesale.com/catalo...roducts_id=195

I thought about getting one to keep me even tighter in the seat, but decided against it due to my seat's contour - didn't think it would help that much since the sides of the seat are bolstered, plus I didn't want it to interfere with any airbags.

I find the 'seatbelt trick' holds me in very well, and figured it was better than the CG Lock also, which only tightens down around your lap - not your upper body. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind the CG Lock. I know I can drive better with a harness since my upper body is stable and I'm not using my grip on the steering wheel to keep my upper body from flying around. That's why I still want that feeling of being fastened down by using the seatbelt trick, that I don't think you get with a CG lock.

For track -- I would look into the approved harness recommendation and understand what its pros & cons are - but as others have said, the final decision and the responsibility for your safety based on your decision is still yours.

[zpeed]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

zpeed, is that belt a pull-up or pull-down lap type? If it's the pull-up type, I'll take it.

Sorry it's a pull-down