How hard is it ? I mean really?

[dayofpain]

So lately im dealing with alot of vendors lying to me about shipment times and when something actually shipped.

SO im really wondering how hard is it ?

1.) How hard is it to stick a quesadilla in a bag at taco bell? I mean really? When I ask the shitbag at the drive through "hey is that everything?" and they reply with "yessir it is" then i drive 10 ft to find out 4 things are missing from my order?

I mean really How hard is it to stick food in a fucking bag and be accurate about everything being in there?

2.) How hard is it to SHIP A FUCKING BOX? When i call and say "did my box ship?" and the vendor replys with "yessir it did" but then call me on the day its supposed to be here and tell me that it shipped today.

so really How hard is it to actually put the dam phone down and ASK the shipping dept about whether or not a package has shipped or not?

------ so then i started to think about my own job. if im passing judgement on the stupidity of others i might as well judge myself.

3.) How hard is it to fucking install a stereo in a car in a timely manner? Without breaking anything.

Its not, not if you have been doing it since you were 16. Not if you CARE about doing things right and making customers happy.

THATS where i came to my conclusion.

I care, others do not.

That shitbag in the drivethrough doesnt give two flying fucks about putting your dam food in the bag. They dont want to be there. But they have to. They dont care if your happy or not. cause if you want taco bell youll go back. when they were younger they didnt say to themselves that they wanted to be a taco bell drivethrough clerk for there whole life or prolly even at all.

The jagoff vendor that ALREADY has your money, doesnt care about shipping your product. In fact i bet once they got your money and TOLD you that your product would be leaving from their location they started to explore other options in order to save them money. IE drop shipping, or alternate means of shipping. Then once they had a few days to maul it over they picked the one that would make them the most money and did that. OR they knew the parts you ordered were coming in a few days. so then they told you they actually had your shit, when really it was still in transit. Which would explain why it didnt ship on the day they TOLD you it would.

Reasoning behind this? They dont care about you. They care about the all mighty dollar. You are nothing but a profit margin to them. The ONLY reason people get their products on time is because they are afraid of loosing future revenue. NOT because they care.






I always thought life wasnt like this. I always thought everyone was like me. That everyone actually cared about what they did. With everyday that passes I find out that people care not even a little bit about their jobs. That all they care about is themselves and improving their own status.

I try to help people whenever possible. Im building 6 cars for 6 different people right now. Im trying to take incredible care in identifying their needs and wants and providing them with the parts they need, cheaper than anyone else can. I reccommend things that I know work, and from experience provide the results they are looking for. I do this for nothing. Not a dime. I might make 5 dollars when the shipping costs actually come out ahead of what I quote. BUt i would say i loose about 50 bucks every week. Just trying to get this going. I have been asked about 4 times this week alone, why I am doing this.

All i can come up with is, because I care.


I Dont really know if theres a reply to this, Its probably just a random rant. but I feel awfully ganged up on lately, and looked down on by many of the same.

[M3n2c3]

I wonder the same thing, oftentimes. 'Twill always be so.

[Coyote]

There is no excuse for poor, or non existant customer service...
In my business, (heavy duty diesel engine parts) We do not manufacture anything. We buy, repackage, and sell. All we have to sell is our product line, and the only thing that differentiates us from our competitors is our service. We have a no questions asked return policy, even when the customers try and stuff standard engine bearings in an engine with a crank ground undersize. We give them full credit, and even pay the freight back. Whenever we get a warranty return, even when it is a blatent case of mechanic error, we will give credit on a policy adjustment basis. When a customer calls late, after our UPS pick up, and really needs something shipped that day, we have the routes of the local UPS drivers, and myself, or one of our warehouse people will go chase down one of the trucks to get the part out. IMHO, this is the only way to run a business, IF you expect to be around for the long term. Our sales this year are on a pace to be double what they were in 2003, so we must be doing something right.

[dayofpain]

been on the phone with BAX shipping for 3+ hours as of right now. there official response to a package that was shipped yesterday and due for delivery today is " we have no idea where your package is" . Of 4 locations and 10 people i have spoken to, every single one has given me false information about a mystery flight from LA to RENO. There is no such flight.

[Dean]

Never believe anything has shipped until you have a tracking number and the carrier's web site acknowledges they have received it into their system.

Pay with a credit card so you can easily challenge shipping charges for late shipments.

Get used to it. If you are getting a deal on something, somebody along the process is making minimum wage, or close to it, and may not have any care as to your satisfaction.

I agree it sucks. We have contractors writting code for multi million dollar applications, and we find $4!+ wrong all the time, and they just say "oh", and charge us more to fix it... Their company makes a huge amount of money, and these contractors are probably making 1/2 what one of our saleried programmers does, and you get what you pay for.

[sperry]

Phil, I think what you just ranted about is pretty much the underlying thing wrong with America. People don't care about anything but themselves and their money. Corporate greed has been out of hand since the 80's, and now it's traveled down to people's personal lives.

Look at the looters in New Orleans. For all intents and purposes, it's armageddon down there. The goddamn end of the world. What are people doing? Trying to survive? Trying to comfort each other? No they're fucking stealing TVs and shooting at rescuers. I read a quote from an Indian woman in Sri Lanka. She called it dead on (and I paraphrase): "When the tsunami hit, everyone helped everone else, helped them to escape and to rebuild. The ablebodied helped those that were too weak to help themselves. In America people just sit around waiting to be helped or theive and loot, and fight." I'm repulsed by the crowds of refugees sitting around in front of the convention center chanting "we want help, we want help". See that, they *want* help... not "need"... *want*. Many of those people looked able enough to help themselves. Why aren't they doing anything to help each other? Blame the welfare generation. People so used to being provided for that they *can't* help themselves.

People in this country are by and large greedy and lazy. Everyone wants everything now and will do only the minimum amount of work to get it. I know I'm guilty of it... I buy shit on my credit card instead of saving up for it... I do it a lot. But there are people far worse than me. People rolling around in their 6000lb bling mobile SUVs living like they're fucking basketball players with a shit job that they rarely go to and bitch about the whole time they're there to pay for it all.

I'm pretty fed up with seeing people's "The Power of Pride" bumper stickers that have no clue what they're proud of. Are they proud of America's massive deficit? How about our policy of taking over soverign nations under the guise of "promoting freedom"? Are they proud of our inability to take care of our own citizens during a natural disaster? Maybe they're proud of our heavy reliance on forign energy. Or perhap they just enjoy the irony of driving around with a "Power of Pride" bumper sticker in the country that the rest of the world views as cocky.

America needs to face the music. We've gotten too big for our britches. The values of hard work and sacrifice that made us the greatest nation on the planet have all blown out of the majority of the people in America. We're complacent and expectant that the world will continue to be our oyster. Something tells me we've got a really harsh awakening coming. It's well past too late to fix things... and I wonder if there's at least a chance to mitigate the damage.

[dayofpain]

I much more global view of the things that irritate me in my own life.

Which I see is me doing it to myself.

Sad that I know im guilty but at the same time, I work so hard at work just to see people smile and say, thanks Im really happy with how this turned out.

I just wish people would take just a second longer and be more proud. not of their country or their house or car.

But of themselves.

[Coyote]

I spend a fair amount of time in Asia, mostly India and China. I was in India a month after the tsunami, and the way those people figure things out on their own is amazing. They do not wait for, or expect any handouts for anything. Everyone helps everyone. It's in their culture, where here, people *expect* to get something for nothing just because they live here.

My 15 year old nephew was riding a quad at my brother in laws house, and he flipped it on a small dune. The first words out of his mouth were "There should be a sign on this hill warning you to be careful". This totally disturbed me, he takes no responsibility for his stupid actions. In his mind, it was not his fault that he was going too fast and screwing around. This is the type of thinking that become the norm, and it scares the shit out of me.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by Coyote

My 15 year old nephew was riding a quad at my brother in laws house, and he flipped it on a small dune. The first words out of his mouth were "There should be a sign on this hill warning you to be careful". This totally disturbed me, he takes no responsibility for his stupid actions. In his mind, it was not his fault that he was going too fast and screwing around. This is the type of thinking that become the norm, and it scares the shit out of me.

One word: Laywers
And the televised results of lawsuits that have no business existing. The McDonalds coffee thing is a perfect example. That should never have seen a court room, but she freaking won. Boiling water poored over ground roasted seeds. Hmm, wonder if that might be hot? to quote Bill Engval, "Here's your sign..."

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

One word: Laywers
And the televised results of lawsuits that have no business existing. The McDonalds coffee thing is a perfect example. That should never have seen a court room, but she freaking won. Boiling water poored over ground roasted seeds. Hmm, wonder if that might be hot? to quote Bill Engval, "Here's your sign..."

Once again I have to respond the the "perfect example" of the McDonald's coffee lawsuit.

That woman deserved every dollar she got. She was *severly* burned, in a "very sensative" place, far worse than any normal hot coffee would burn you. Why? Because McDonalds was heating their coffee water into the hundreds of degrees so they could make a few extra cups of coffee out of each bag of beans.

Basically, because McDonalds was trying to make an extra $0.50/bag of coffee beans, this woman is disfigured.

Tell me again how trivial that lawsuit was. Not to mention that she attempted to settle out of court for $20k, and McDonalds laughed her off.

Read about the case... google is your friend. There's a reason that judgement turned out the way it did... it was a jury case, and it's obvious that public opinion that suing over hot coffee is commonly considered "trivial"... find out why the jury awarded her $2.7M in punitive damages (although it was greatly reduced later on) based on the actual situation.

[JC]

Originally Posted by sperry

Look at the looters in New Orleans. For all intents and purposes, it's armageddon down there. The goddamn end of the world. What are people doing? Trying to survive? Trying to comfort each other? No they're fucking stealing TVs and shooting at rescuers. I read a quote from an Indian woman in Sri Lanka. She called it dead on (and I paraphrase): "When the tsunami hit, everyone helped everone else, helped them to escape and to rebuild. The ablebodied helped those that were too weak to help themselves. In America people just sit around waiting to be helped or theive and loot, and fight." I'm repulsed by the crowds of refugees sitting around in front of the convention center chanting "we want help, we want help". See that, they *want* help... not "need"... *want*. Many of those people looked able enough to help themselves. Why aren't they doing anything to help each other? Blame the welfare generation. People so used to being provided for that they *can't* help themselves.

What exactly do you want them to do to help themselves Scott? Can they build water purifiers? Want them to start a farm and grow some food? Please Scott tell me what they should be doing. Your whole point is offensive. Why don't we take away everything you own except the clothes on your back, ship you hundreds of miles from your house, cut you off from everyone you know and see how you fair. I don't think your high and mighty self would be so cavalier about the situation.

JC

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Once again I have to respond the the "perfect example" of the McDonald's coffee lawsuit.

OK, I retract the McDonalds reference, but the somebody else's fault mentality, and lawsuit burdened courts and media coverage thereof are all related. That was my point.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

What exactly do you want them to do to help themselves Scott? Can they build water purifiers? Want them to start a farm and grow some food? Please Scott tell me what they should be doing. Your whole point is offensive. Why don't we take away everything you own except the clothes on your back, ship you hundreds of miles from your house, cut you off from everyone you know and see how you fair. I don't think your high and mighty self would be so cavalier about the situation.

JC

So you're saying that shooting at a rescue helicopter is the preferred way to make this situation better? How about raping girls that need to use the bathroom at the superdome?

I'm pretty sure that 40 or so ablebodied men should be able to protect a little girl that needs to piss. So instead of sitting on the ground demanding help, they could attempt to provide some security from the crackheads that are trying to rape the women.

Further to the point, people are dying and being left where the fell. It's a dirty job but the bodies could be moved. Same goes with the bathroom situation. If the toilets don't work, designate somewhere else to use instead of crapping where you stand.

But all that would take some leadership and teamwork. Something I see little of in New Orleans. In fact, the most organized people seem to be the looters, murders and rapists. At least they're working together to create mayhem.

Frankly, if I were there in that hell hole, I'd do whatever it takes to get the fuck out. One it was clear there was no plan, the last place I'd go is downtown or to the evacuation points. A backpack full of looted food and a pair of walking shoes and I start marching. Preferably with several people I can trust and a rifle or two. I walk until I reach civilized people that haven't totally lost their minds.

The last thing I do is sit on my ass and demand help from people that clearly can't help me, then bitch and moan "they's treatin us like animals!". If you feel like a caged animal, remember, no one forced you to rely on the government. I'm not saying that the goverenment didn't totally drop the ball, I just know that if it looks like the people that are supposed to take care of me can't, I look for alternative means to survive.

So, maybe I am cavalier about the situation... I've never been a witness to the end of the world before... I don't really know how I'd act. 'Course I would have evacuated before the storm. And I know a lot of those people are too poor to afford to leave, and the government really should have had them in busses Sunday night and outta there, or even on Monday after the storm and before the levees broke. It's just that I see a lot of ablebodied men and women on the news lamenting about how fucked they are instead of helping themselves and protecting those that can't protect themselves.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by sperry

Frankly, if I were there in that hell hole, I'd do whatever it takes to get the fuck out. One it was clear there was no plan, the last place I'd go is downtown or to the evacuation points. A backpack full of looted food and a pair of walking shoes and I start marching. Preferably with several people I can trust and a rifle or two. I walk until I reach civilized people that haven't totally lost their minds.

yessir. i agree. 100%

furthermore, I would like to add what I would probably do. Though getting my ass out of dodge would be a good idea. In certain situations and in life, i tend to take charge of situations that are out of control. I try to help people in life alot of the time. If i knew that storm was coming, My ass would have tried to evacuate all my friends and loved ones. It wouldnt have been impossible. (yeah double negative but sounds funny the other way)

However I feel like I would go back. It seems that the police and the authority figures are outmanned with girls getting raped while trying to pee. I think the "punisher" in me would see something like that happening and not respond well. In fact Im sure of it. My desert eagle and the rapists and murders would have words. Kicking people when they are down is just pathetic. Yes it would be against the law, but sometimes the only people to defend the weak, are the strong. If your stronger than the people exploiting the weak, then IMHO its your duty to protect them. Even if your not stronger, IMHO its your duty to try.

I think the second people I would kill would be the STUPID FUCKERS shooting at the rescuers. I mean come on. If I saw people SHOOTING at others trying to HELP me? It would be on like donkey kong.

[sperry]

Well, we've got some troops on the ground fresh from Iraq with orders to "restore the law at all costs". I've read that looters, murders and rapists are already being shot. I've also read that the media has been instructed to stop focusing on the really bad shit that's going down, which is why those type of reports have stopped flowing in.

...'course this is all stuff I've read on the internet, so who knows how accurate it is.

[JC]

Originally Posted by sperry

So you're saying that shooting at a rescue helicopter is the preferred way to make this situation better? How about raping girls that need to use the bathroom at the superdome?

I'm pretty sure that 40 or so ablebodied men should be able to protect a little girl that needs to piss. So instead of sitting on the ground demanding help, they could attempt to provide some security from the crackheads that are trying to rape the women.

Further to the point, people are dying and being left where the fell. It's a dirty job but the bodies could be moved. Same goes with the bathroom situation. If the toilets don't work, designate somewhere else to use instead of crapping where you stand.

But all that would take some leadership and teamwork. Something I see little of in New Orleans. In fact, the most organized people seem to be the looters, murders and rapists. At least they're working together to create mayhem.

Frankly, if I were there in that hell hole, I'd do whatever it takes to get the fuck out. One it was clear there was no plan, the last place I'd go is downtown or to the evacuation points. A backpack full of looted food and a pair of walking shoes and I start marching. Preferably with several people I can trust and a rifle or two. I walk until I reach civilized people that haven't totally lost their minds.

The last thing I do is sit on my ass and demand help from people that clearly can't help me, then bitch and moan "they's treatin us like animals!". If you feel like a caged animal, remember, no one forced you to rely on the government. I'm not saying that the goverenment didn't totally drop the ball, I just know that if it looks like the people that are supposed to take care of me can't, I look for alternative means to survive.

So, maybe I am cavalier about the situation... I've never been a witness to the end of the world before... I don't really know how I'd act. 'Course I would have evacuated before the storm. And I know a lot of those people are too poor to afford to leave, and the government really should have had them in busses Sunday night and outta there, or even on Monday after the storm and before the levees broke. It's just that I see a lot of ablebodied men and women on the news lamenting about how fucked they are instead of helping themselves and protecting those that can't protect themselves.

Right because everyone is shooting and helicopters and raping people. Just a bunch of savages left right? There are 20,000 + people there, do you have any concept of how many people that is? That's more people than the town I grew up in, in a much smaller space. You have no food and no water (loot that's a good one, you think everyone is starving when the grocery store across the street is full?) and you are gonna wander around a massive crowd of people in the heat like some badass and be a security guard? You make me laugh.

No wait that's what you want them to do. You are gonna form a little gang and wade (or worse swim) through flood waters filled with dead bodies, dangerous animals, wreckage, and god know's what diseases HOPING to steal food and water along your hundreds of miles trek. Oh and don't forget the heat, I assure you it's hard to walk a mile when the road is clear. Instead of just sitting in a place where the gov't is promising you'll be safe and cared for. Did you really put a lot of thought into this? I think you might want to brush up on your survival tactics. I do like the idea that you are going to horde a backpack of food and water while you leave thousands of children to dehydrate, starve, and die. Everyone else should be helping each other and protecting little girls, but you are out for #1. I guess you aren't such a hero when you are hungry.

Originally Posted by dayofpain

yessir. i agree. 100%

furthermore, I would like to add what I would probably do. Though getting my ass out of dodge would be a good idea. In certain situations and in life, i tend to take charge of situations that are out of control. I try to help people in life alot of the time. If i knew that storm was coming, My ass would have tried to evacuate all my friends and loved ones. It wouldnt have been impossible. (yeah double negative but sounds funny the other way)

However I feel like I would go back. It seems that the police and the authority figures are outmanned with girls getting raped while trying to pee. I think the "punisher" in me would see something like that happening and not respond well. In fact Im sure of it. My desert eagle and the rapists and murders would have words. Kicking people when they are down is just pathetic. Yes it would be against the law, but sometimes the only people to defend the weak, are the strong. If your stronger than the people exploiting the weak, then IMHO its your duty to protect them. Even if your not stronger, IMHO its your duty to try.

I think the second people I would kill would be the STUPID FUCKERS shooting at the rescuers. I mean come on. If I saw people SHOOTING at others trying to HELP me? It would be on like donkey kong.

The people left are the people too poor to leave. It's a lot easier when are rich and have options. But what if you don't? What if you can't leave? What if you have no where to go and no money? When are trying to figure out how to get water for your kids so they don't die, I don't think leaving them to be a vigilanty is really an option.

[sperry]

So JC, you're telling me you'd gladly sit around in squalor, with people dying due to a lack of help because those that are supposed to be helping you told you to? You're going to let children get raped because you don't want to look like some "security guard".

I'm fully aware there are tens of thousands of people there, and the trouble makers are by far the minority. Which is why I ask how are they getting away with rape!? You'd think if there are 20,000 people, and 100 rapists, there's gotta be atleast enough good people there that are strong enough to stop the crime, right? But apparently it's far more productive to sit and chant "we want help" instead.

And my plan to get out of the city isn't the one for those 20,000 people at the superdome. That's what I would have done instead of going to the useless evacuation point. I'd grab my family and get outta town anyway I could.

It may sound like a contradiction, but it's actually not. In a better world, all those people at the superdome would be doing more to make their situation better. In reality, they're not. At least, that's what's being portrayed on CNN. Since no one there seems to want to take charge, since no one there seems to want to work together, fuck 'em... I'm out. There aren't enough people willing to try in the crowd for my help to make a difference. Why should I risk my life and my families to stay amongst them? I wasn't arguing that I would be some vigilante saviour superhero, I'm arguing that this crowd of people isn't willing to stand up for itself. It can't be all invalids and children peppered with murderes and rapists? There should be a large contingency of useful, able people... yet that's not what seems to be the case. Where are the heros? When flight 93 was hijacked, people fought back... where are the people like that in New Orleans? Did they all make it to higher ground?

The bottom line is this: the cavalry didn't come through in a timely manner, and the people left behind are incapable of helping themselves. In that situation, I at least try to save myself and my family.

You seem to think those people were doing all that they could by sitting around chanting for help, letting rapes and murders occur in the crowd. How about this, how much less could they be doing to survive?

Of course, I could be totally off base. All I know about this situation is what the media portrays. I have no real base to make my judgement on. I do know that the stories I've heard from this tragedy are chilling... you didn't hear anything like this in the CA earthquakes, or during the 9/11 coverage. There was no widespread anarchy after the multitudes of Florida hurricanes. What's different about the people in this disaster that has allowed this situation to degrade so poorly? Is it because most of the people there are poor and/or uneducated? Are they just stupid? Perhaps that's the problem, the people that stayed are too stupid to leave, which also makes them too stupid to try to survive. I wonder how they survived before the hurricane.</sarcasm>

[M3n2c3]

It's easy to hypothesize what one would do when stuck in that kind of situation. But until you're there, with the fear running through you, and the hunger, and the exhaustion, the pain and adrenaline, until you reach that moment when uncertainty and panic start to rise, when instinct and conditioning take over and rational thought is nearly impossible. . . up until that point, it's just hypothesis.

[JC]

Originally Posted by sperry

So JC, you're telling me you'd gladly sit around in squalor, with people dying due to a lack of help because those that are supposed to be helping you told you to? You're going to let children get raped because you don't want to look like some "security guard".

I'm fully aware there are tens of thousands of people there, and the trouble makers are by far the minority. Which is why I ask how are they getting away with rape!? You'd think if there are 20,000 people, and 100 rapists, there's gotta be atleast enough good people there that are strong enough to stop the crime, right? But apparently it's far more productive to sit and chant "we want help" instead.

I think if I were in that situation I don't think the possibility that people where getting raped would even enter my mind. If I saw it happening of course I would do something, but that chances of that are miniscule. Sitting in the scorching heat while you are dehydrated I assure you the last thing you are going to do is get up and walk around looking for people to save. Not to mention all the people dying around me and children with no parents who need to be taken care of. I guess I should leave them to patrol the area looking for criminals to punish.

Despite your sarcasm ya it probably is more productive to sit around and chant. At least that will give you a chance of getting people there that can actually help. Forming a mob and going around kicking the crap out of people is going to make things worse. What you should be focusing on is getting the government to do their jobs to save the dying people because that's really the only way the situation could be resolved.

Originally Posted by sperry

And my plan to get out of the city isn't the one for those 20,000 people at the superdome. That's what I would have done instead of going to the useless evacuation point. I'd grab my family and get outta town anyway I could.

And you'd be dead and would have killed your family in the process. If you actually think you could walk (with kids!) through waist deep (if you are lucky) swamp water for miles in the dibilating heat with no food or water, well you have no idea what you are talking about or you are superman and computer programmer is just your cover.

Originally Posted by sperry

It may sound like a contradiction, but it's actually not. In a better world, all those people at the superdome would be doing more to make their situation better. In reality, they're not. At least, that's what's being portrayed on CNN. Since no one there seems to want to take charge, since no one there seems to want to work together, fuck 'em... I'm out. There aren't enough people willing to try in the crowd for my help to make a difference. Why should I risk my life and my families to stay amongst them? I wasn't arguing that I would be some vigilante saviour superhero, I'm arguing that this crowd of people isn't willing to stand up for itself. It can't be all invalids and children peppered with murderes and rapists? There should be a large contingency of useful, able people... yet that's not what seems to be the case. Where are the heros? When flight 93 was hijacked, people fought back... where are the people like that in New Orleans? Did they all make it to higher ground?

The bottom line is this: the cavalry didn't come through in a timely manner, and the people left behind are incapable of helping themselves. In that situation, I at least try to save myself and my family.

Maybe they all felt like you and said screw it ya'll are on your own. How's the saying go? All it takes for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing? You expect them to save each other, yet you yourself would just leave. You'd leave screaming starving children with no parents, people dying from heat exhaust, and women getting raped because someone else wasn't stronger than you and stood up for them first? Crowds can't stand up for themselves people have to. Just because no one stood up to be a leader (as far as we know, someone certainly could have) they all aren't worthy of your great self's assistance? I wanna know how you propose policing over 30,000 people when you have no weapons or communication equipment let alone personnel. The best you could do is rely on individuals to do the right thing when they get the chance.

Originally Posted by sperry

You seem to think those people were doing all that they could by sitting around chanting for help, letting rapes and murders occur in the crowd. How about this, how much less could they be doing to survive?

They could remain silent and die. Apparently that would please you more.

Originally Posted by sperry

Of course, I could be totally off base. All I know about this situation is what the media portrays. I have no real base to make my judgement on. I do know that the stories I've heard from this tragedy are chilling... you didn't hear anything like this in the CA earthquakes, or during the 9/11 coverage. There was no widespread anarchy after the multitudes of Florida hurricanes.

Of course we all only know what we hear on the news. None of those other events had near the scale of this.

Originally Posted by sperry

What's different about the people in this disaster that has allowed this situation to degrade so poorly? Is it because most of the people there are poor and/or uneducated? Are they just stupid? Perhaps that's the problem, the people that stayed are too stupid to leave, which also makes them too stupid to try to survive. I wonder how they survived before the hurricane.</sarcasm>

Too stupid to leave? Where did you want them to go and how would they get there? They trusted the government to do their job and take care of it's citizens. How is that their fault? All they are trying to do is survive long enough to rebuild a life that has been completely destroyed. Now not only do they have to fight dehydration, heat, starvation, disease, and criminals but holier than thou assholes like you who insult them and kick them when they are down. You wonder where all the heros are? Maybe they are telling all the dying children they are too stupid to survive. You must be proud of yourself Scott.

[Dean]

OK, here are a couple of my issues.

Water... Lake Pontchartrain, Mississippi... Sound like sources of water to me... Boil it, drink it straight, whatever... Staying in the same place with thousands of other people with no water is not very intelligent in my opinion. Oh, and why don't these people have water? Water worked fine right up until it stopped. I saw one story where a hotel worker left her apartment to a bunch of stranded folks when she left and she had filled every possible containner in the place with water, including her tub. Probably a couple hundred gallons worth, and she was only one person.

Poor couldn't leave. OK, maybe that is true of some, but if everyone who owned a car had left, there would be a shit load fewer cars floating around.

I agree the feds should have reacted faster, but where is the personal initiative. And terrorizing/looting hospitals is just insanity at the best.

Why the gov. didn't hook up 100 box cars to some Locomotives , throw a port-o-potty in each and a couple 50 gallon drums of water and go get everyone.

Couple trains like that and the area is empty, and the rescue effort can focus on those who really can't help themselves like the sick, injured, elderly, etc.

Or hell, those school buses weren't under water after the storm, they got that way afterwards. Why did they wait for air conditioned buses from Florida to be brought in?

Again, I'm not saying there aren't things that should have been done, and the media is focusing on the worst stories possible.

Many of the people in New Orleans will be able to go home, the people on the gulf coast have lost everything, Where are their stories?

The media sucks. Why don't they strip their satelite trucks bare and haul food and water instead of satelite dishes, cameras and reporters. Anybody notice how nice and clean and well fed the reporters appear... Hmmm... Wonder if there is much chanting when there are no cameras around?

Where is the imbeded reporter suffering along with the mases keeping a video diary on a $299 hi-8 cam in his backpack? No story there I guess. Where are the stories about all the heroes and teamwork??? Not very sensational I guess.

[ScottyS]

Man, I know better than to start in...so to summarize my take:

1) In our country, local govts have responsibility for order until they make the call to the Feds. The State and Local authorities obviously dropped the ball big-time here. They did not have a plan for this crisis (which has been predicted for years, even in Natl Geographic!) that was adequate for THEIR SOCIETY. With the in-depth demographic tracking and cataloguing that local goverments spend TONS of money on (for better service, hawhaw), there is no way to say that the amount and tendancies of the people involved was NOT predictable. Within hours, we had a distraught LA Gov. holding tearful press conferences instead of strengthening the morale and supply line of what local LEs were on the ground. The reins were NOT handed over to the Feds in an orderly manner --- it seems that the Feds pretty much had to re-evaluate the entire crisis themselves. You can't tell the trucks where to go if you don't have a clear situational awareness. THAT WAS THE LOCAL GOVT'S JOB, AND ANY "DELAYS" ARE ON THEM!

2) The type of people being used to sensationalize this crisis worldwide are the typical, helpless, dependent idiots. Scott went over them in detail, but I'll reinforce: a) I know how far it is possible to walk, even if you don't have a lot of food and water, and it amazes me that so many people chose to stay within their sad social construct rather than ACTUALLY MAKE THEIR OWN SURVIVAL DECISIONS; b) the criminals stealing TV's the first day are the same ones that will KILL and RAPE the next day --- in a situation of martial law where the betterment of a large population segment is at stake, you treat all lawlessness with the same consequences, judgement left only to the shooter (it sounds bad, but welcome to earth); c) the lack of action to quell the problems from within the population frankly condemn the population itself --- whether there was a high percentage of walking inmates or not, American society needs to take a long, hard look at the development of this segment of people and discover why there is a lack of honor, self-sufficiency, pity, and sacrifice.

3) Related to #1, when an entire urban area is capable of being flooded (i.e. below sea level), rest assured that in geologic time it is not a matter of if, but when it will occur. Whether or not people are dumb to live there is beside the point --- a review of Pearl S. Buck's "The Big Wave", will show that no society is completely rational. To live in such a place (where the largest river in North America has been permanently diverted, in it's delta, no less), is to bear the responsibility of preparedness and understanding if things go bad. Those pols, people, and panderers squawking all sorts of venom about blame, race, and fault are either fools or manipulators of the worst sort.


In my mind, these broad factors (not entirely divorced) combine in the worst possible way to result in the chaos seen in NOLA. While one can be sure that the "worst-case scenario" would have different results in different areas of the United States (behavior of society, state of command and control, etc), the lessons of NO should not be overlooked as similar societal conditions exist in other US cities, and this type of population is becoming more and more normal. Children are not taught to think outside the box of uniform public education, and are trained that they all "deserve" something. The public naturally wants the government to make life easier, but the long-term effects of dependence is well-known and well-ignored.

The media reporting currently refuses to draw any of these conclusions, however. How annoying.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

Too stupid to leave? Where did you want them to go and how would they get there? They trusted the government to do their job and take care of it's citizens. How is that their fault? All they are trying to do is survive long enough to rebuild a life that has been completely destroyed. Now not only do they have to fight dehydration, heat, starvation, disease, and criminals but holier than thou assholes like you who insult them and kick them when they are down. You wonder where all the heros are? Maybe they are telling all the dying children they are too stupid to survive. You must be proud of yourself Scott.

Alright, I'm way too tired to repeat myself. However, before you call me an asshole, you should FUCKING READ MY POST.

Originally Posted by sperry

</sarcasm>

Jesus.

And yes, the government has totally dropped the ball on this. It took 5 days before relief started to arrive... they certainly should and could have started mobilizing before the storm hit and had supplies on the way as soon as the weather was clear enough for it to be safe. They could have stocked the superdome with food and water for 30,000 people and perhaps even a bunch of chemical toilets in case, say, maybe the plumbing stopped working. I certainly don't blame the people in New Orleans for being totally fucked out of resources that should have been available to them.

What I'm am saying is that they don't really seem to want to survive. They want someone else to provide for them. They're not chanting "we need help" which is what I would expect to hear from desperate people that have exhausted all their resources, I hear them chanting "we want help", the type of thing that people who expect to be taken care of would say. A minor difference perhaps, but I think it's a significant bit of insight into the mentality of the people there.

This was a thread about the general laziness of Americans. About people's inability to see to care about anything except getting shit for themselves with the minimum amount of work. I though the choice of words used by those stranded in NOLA to be an interesting example pertinent to the discussion. People so used to being provided for that even in an extreme, life threatening situation, don't want to try to take responsibility for their own survival. They see the system they rely on failing them, and the best they can do is complain. Hell if they rioted, at least they'd be doing something for themselves.

And before you choose to insult me some more, yes, that's hyperbole.

And since this argument is only descending into personal attacks (which I'm a little surprised about) I'm backing out of it. I'd rather not get into a discussion of welfare and the plight of the poor, because then I'll just have to suggest that poor people eat their babies or something, because that's totally the reasonable type of thing that I'd endorse, you know, while I'm kicking flood victims and starving children.

[Kevin M]

Disappointment. Anger. Frustration. Helplessness.

This is what I feel as I hear more and more about the events following Katrina. I'm not overly concerned by my dismay at the actions of the worst offenders down there (mild surprise is as far as it goes) but I can see how it happened. I mean, before the flooding and serious damage had happened, I was thinking "oh, big deal, a hurricane. That crap happens like 5 times a year, why are we reading about it in Nevada?" And then the shit hit the fan. So, I can definitely understand how so many people got fucked in the situation by sticking around too long and being unprepared- though I'm not sure you can "prepare" for what happened there even if you knew the extent of what would happen before hand. Basically, a lot of people thought just like me- it's just a hurricane, we'll board the windows, stock up on some food and water, and get drunk with our neighbors til it blows over. Then there's the fact that some people, even if aware enough to know they should leave, couldn't. For many of the people who are by and large the topic of discussion here, serious evacuation was not an option, because of financial issues. You can't take 6 or 8 days off of work when you're working for near minimum wage, even if you wouldn't lose such a job for missing that much time. I can see how knowingly putting your life into severe distress would seem much scarier than trying to ride out the 19th hurricane of your adult life. In hindsight, it seems dumb, but who really thought they wouldn't have a job to go back to before the storm hit?

So, lately I have wondered what I'd be doing today if I'd been stubborn, stupid, or naive enough to stay in the area when the storm hit. If I literally had no home, no possessions, no means of procuring food, water, and shelter. What would I do? Don't know really. But I'd do something. I'd hope to find at least a couple other people who also were trying to find a way to stay alive, and find some way to return to something resembling normal life in the near future. Find a way to get fresh, or at least potable, water first. A place in the shade to keep cool. Find some food. Now, if I'm looking around, and the whole metro area is destroyed, well, many improprieties from last week aren't such a big deal now. You can bet that I'd be looking for a supermarket, and me and those other couple of healthy bodies would be carting back as much food as we could get back to that shady spot. We'd get some tents, sleeping bags, whatever other basic outdoor gear would help us out. If I see someone carrying a plasma TV out of walmart, I could care less. If you're dumb enough to waste your time and energy like that, fine with me. I'd also fully expect some sort of disaster assistance to come in soon. Some people passing out some clean clothes, blankets, emergency supplies for people with life-threatening conditions like Diabetes or high blood pressure or the like. I don't know how I'd handle it when that hadn't happened in 2, 3, 4 days. I'd want to get out of dodge, but I'm rational enough that I wouldn't head for the hills until I knew where I was going, how to get there, and could reasonably expect to make it. I once did a 27 mile road march in korea with a 45 pound ruck, which isn't really that heavy, and we didn't even carry weapons. The march is basically a ceremonial re-enactment that one brigade in South Korea carries out every 90 days as part of their training. They invite other units to participate as well to prove what great soldiers we are too. Anyways, I bring it up because it kicked my ass and I was in pretty damn good shape at the time. I had sufficient water. I could run 2 miles in close to 11 minutes. I had repeatedly carried a full combat load (60 pounds of ruck, web gear, kevlar helmet) plus my weapon on marches of 5-7 miles in basic training the previous few months with only a couple short rest breaks of 5-10 minutes to change socks. So, I can at least say that trying to hump out of what is basically a half million acre swamp with enough fresh water and dry clothes to make it might be unrealistic.

So I might not go anywhere, and just keep trying to find enough water, food, clothing and shelter to not die or get truly sick. I'm not bothered by peole that steal TVs or living room sets at the time. Whatever, at least you're occupying yourself I guess. I'd certainly be willing to help others that i incidentally met doing all this foraging, especially those who are with children or would have difficulty providing for themselves for any other reason. But if I pass by the girl getting raped waiting to use a bathroom... fuck that. I'm probably dumb enough to let my sense of honor get me killed over something like that, but it's better than living with guilt and shame over letting it happen. Basically, anything anybody does down there to survive, to stay healthy, is perfectly acceptable to me. But crimes, things that do nothing to aid your own survival, and take away from another person's ability to do so, should be punished. Immediately and severely. If I got to the point where I felt my immediate survival was relatively ensured, then I might have a hard time sitting there, drinking my stolen bottles of Aquafina and munching on my bags of Doritos and beef jerky the first time I heard gunfire, or screaming. I'd probably start looking for ways to go out and stop at least a few people from being victimized.

But enough of the hypothetical- it's easy to imagine being the hero while trying to fill the time on my boring job, secure enough for the immediate future. I started wondering what I could do to help. Now, I've often mused about finding a local organization to volunteer with, or finally getting around to gathering up the clutter of clothes and such I've accumulated that I don't really need, and giving them to charity. I have noble aspirations, but never much motivation to go with it. But this week, I really, strongly, sincerely felt the desire to do something. Meaning actions. Meaning, find a way to get my ass to Louisiana, and try to help save someone's farm. Or help people try to dig through their flooded homes for salvagable possessions. Or go find whatever trucks and boats are moving supplies into the city, and reload them when they come back. Anything. Just some small way that I can look back later and say that I actually helped someone. Not just pitching a few bucks into a collection can and thinking I did something, but really affecting some stranger's life in a meaningful way.

But I don't. I am unwilling to forfeit what little security and comfort I have. Rationally, I guess I think I can't help any one person more than I'd be losing myself. Selfishly, I simply don't want to give up what I have. And I suppose the guilt of doing nothing to help them isn't enough to spur my sense of honor the way it would if I was witnessing something truly wrong. That is why I am frustrated and feel helpless. I do not have the power to significantly help even one person down there without a degree of selflessness I apparently don't possess. And that is disappointing to me. Because of this, I have a hard time being truly critical of the crap that's going on there. Yeah, hell's going to be pretty crowded when that bus we joke about gets us there- but I didn't do anything this week to get off of it either.

[M3n2c3]

Saw this quote on CNN from an evacuee:
"Sir, you've got about 3,000 people here in this -- in the Convention Center right now. They're hungry. Don't have any food. We were told two-and-a-half days ago to make our way to the Superdome or the Convention Center by our mayor. And which when we got here, was no one to tell us what to do, no one to direct us, no authority figure."

[MikeSTI]

All I have is one word...........where the f*** is - "Grayhound" place be cleared.... nuf said