Suspension Mod Path

[A1337STI]

So i've had it in my little head to get my camber adjusted. as recomended on here, i should go to Sids alignment and have it professional done. Or at the minium do it with someone and have it professional checked. (arg, nothing is close to tahoe)

Since if you change out springs, tops (and other parts) you have to get an alignment. i would think it makes more sense to change out a few parts, Then do the alignment.

So with that in mind I'm thinking of Springs / Tops/ Struts / Sways / Camber bolts (rear) / and a Whiteline autocross legal ALK insert bushing from my prefered whitelind vendor (which i don't have one yet) . I would guess the Sways and top tower strut braces don't require an alignment, but i'm just a webmonkey and i'm probably wrong.

So i was told /suggested (by uhm everyone) that Pink springs and Group-N top mounts would be a great combo for my stock struts. (considering my driving usage ranges from getting groceries in 2 feet of uneven snow , autocrosses, and hopefully a few track days) Which does sound like a good compramise with out having to go to a fully adjustable coil over setup.

I was doing some additional research on IWSTI.com and also found that prodrives are highly recomended for the stock strut, they are a 3way progressive spring. up to 25% stiffer then the stocks. specifically designed for the USDM STI , with a redesign for the suspension changes in the 05 STI. Also they are a bit cheaper (so far i've seen $265)

The reviews said they greatly reduce body roll, the bounciness, and bobblehead affects the car has. since they are progressive, and the first CM of compression happen at a softer then stock spring rate, would these be better on snow then the more linear Pinks ? IIRC you want softer springs for snow/dirt ?? (they do lower the car 20 mm, which i would think is bad for snow, but everything is a compramise)

Also i've seen Adjustable Cusco top mount which say you can adjust the Caster/Camber some . then there are Prodrive top mounts (i would figure they would be a good match for the prodrive springs, the marketing mumbo Jumbo on them says they hold up better then other brands for Rally use. which would make me think they are tough, and i plan to try out 1 Rally Cross (the school in June) (if there is no benfit and the group-s are cheaper, and basically same quality, well that's a no brainer )

I belive that as far as strut towers/ sways go. the biggest increase/ bang for my buck is just to do a rear sway. (the rear sway would probably help more then springs) that's what i am currently thinking.

Knowing that, i still want to do strut towers 1st. I want to do the rear cuase i will do it at some point, and i need to know where it will be , so i can install my car stereo. i want to install the front becuase i've read on the web it gets rid of the window shield creek. I get that 4 times a day , entering, leaving my work and it just Really bugs me! The recomend item seemed to be strut tower braces with out hinges, and lighter is better (i'm not that concerned about a few lbs though)

Also the strut braces are suppost to help reduce the amount of postive camber gained when hard cornering due to the mcphersin strut design (mis-spelled). the combination of some postive camber while cornering + me over driving my car is Murdering my outside shoulders!
and then i would do the sways .

Hopefully there are some good combo deals, and or recomended venders i should be looking at. (at which point the sticker shock will probably force an alteration of my current plan)

** I'm also awear that doing any/all of that won't make me a better driver, but should still reduce my times slightly, and will greatly increase the untapped potential of my car which is already quite large**

I'm just hoping to come up with a plan, figure out what it will cost me, so i can save up for it Thank you everyone for your help (and thanks for all the tips over the weekend auto Cross, after each tip i was droping seconds off my runs)

I have read the rules a few times now, specifically the Street Touring and Street Prepared rules. but i don't really understand what is meant by "shock absorber" and a few other techinical terms so i may be planning on doing a mod that bumps me beyound street prepared, and that's not my goal at all.

(any and all advice welcome, even a few wise cracks )

[A1337STI]

oh ya if you have a part you are trying to sell, that fits well into my mod path, lmk, i was checking the FS section but it looks like some strut braces just sold, and walk talking at the meet i confirmed someone sold some pink springs so sounds like i'm a day late and a dollar short on that.

[M3n2c3]

Erm, let's see. . . here's what I can offer from my limited experience. . .

STi pinks and Group N topmounts are a safe choice, but you'd probably want to go ahead and pick up some damping-adjustable struts while you're at it. They'll be nice for going from street to track, and then you won't have to bother with disassembling your stock suspension assembly.

Getting adjustable top-mounts will mean pillowball joints, and that means your ride quality (comfort) will take a HUGE hit. The stock mounts are rubber for a very good reason. But it will help stiffen up your handling a bit (less flexing) and add the camber adjustability. Just make sure you really want to be able to do that first. I'd say start with the Group N topmounts and then upgrade to camber plates if you decide you want more.

I don't know what the stock size is on the STi rear sway, but I'm sure an adjustable RSB would provide some benefits. Just remember that a bigger rear sway will make your car more tail-happy, and that's bad in the snow. As for the strut tower braces, there was a thread on the forum here somewhere discussing whether they're really even worth spending the money on over other possible suspension mods. They'll stop chassis flex to a point, but Imprezas are already pretty stiff.

Spring/strut/topmount replacements, sway bars, and strut tower braces are all safe for street touring and street prepared, I believe.

[Dean]

In both the front of the rear of the GD sedan, there is a bulkhead immediately in front of or behind the strut towers, so IMHO ST bars have minimal value so those should be last on your list.

Springs are wound steel wire. Buy the cheapest ones with the specs you want from a vendor/manufacturer you trust.

As I understand, the legal ALK bushing is a pain in the ass and probably not worth the effort. If money is no object, go for it, but a sway bar would probably have more effect.

A serious front bar may and maybe an adjustable rear bar be an even better choice than a rear believe it or not with streetable springs. Minimizing front roll is key to maintaining negative camber.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719115
For the rear bar as long as it came with upgraded rear mounts. Like springs, rear bar is a rear bar, but all endlinks are not created equally. My weapon of choice for the rear is: http://www.poltec.us/products/subaru..._end_links.htm

The adjustable lets you eliminate or add preload since you can't corner balance without coilovers. If you go with a smaller front bar, make sure it has adjustable end links.

And don't the STIs already come with teh group N tops?

[Joeyy]

Dean, do you think finally putting on the front Perrin sway bar wil keep all four of my tires on the ground. I'm also only on the middle setting on the rear sway...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

In both the front of the rear of the GD sedan, there is a bulkhead immediately in front of or behind the strut towers, so IMHO ST bars have minimal value so those should be last on your list.

In my RS, my rear windshield would creak when I went into/out of driveways. Adding the rear STB made that stop. But, in terms of noticeable handling improvement, probably not much until you've done a lot of other things, namely much stiffer springs, tophats, and assorted bushings. file STBs under "might or might not not help, but it's not hurting anything."

Originally Posted by Dean

Springs are wound steel wire. Buy the cheapest ones with the specs you want from a vendor/manufacturer you trust.

Wrong. Cheap springs will, over time, sag and go soft. Insert Dean-is-old-and-should-know-about-this joke here. They also have much worse quality control and are rarely what the packaging/eBay ad says the rates are, nor was any R&D done on any specific application whatsoever. They "fit," so on to the next ricer car dujour. For the STi, I would stick to the known commodities- Whiteline, Prodrive, Eibach, STi, Perrin, Tein, Tanabe, etc. would all be good. Browse the classifieds and buy the first good deal that comes along on a NAME BRAND. Most well-known springs in the US are made by Eibach, because they are very good at it. Dean will, of course, disagree with this, because he happened to buy one of the few quality suspensions available here that is not manufactured in part by Eibach.

Originally Posted by Dean

As I understand, the legal ALK bushing is a pain in the ass and probably not worth the effort. If money is no object, go for it, but a sway bar would probably have more effect.

Yes, huge pain in the ass to do yourself. I recommend der Khamissar's method of installation for these, as the added stiffness and caster helps turn-in and dynamic camber noticeably. My ALK was the only mod I really missed last year after switching back to DSP. Although, in the '05 you already have a lot more caster than with earlier models, so the benefit is reduced.

Originally Posted by Dean

A serious front bar may and maybe an adjustable rear bar be an even better choice than a rear believe it or not with streetable springs. Minimizing front roll is key to maintaining negative camber.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719115
For the rear bar as long as it came with upgraded rear mounts. Like springs, rear bar is a rear bar, but all endlinks are not created equally. My weapon of choice for the rear is: http://www.poltec.us/products/subaru..._end_links.htm

The adjustable lets you eliminate or add preload since you can't corner balance without coilovers. If you go with a smaller front bar, make sure it has adjustable end links.

but with the exception that I'm still not totally sold on huge bars for the street. Nobody in our group is running a gigantic front sway on their STi, jsut the standard moderate upgrades. But, with a compromise car that has to be good at every kind of driving, I'd stay away from it for now.

Originally Posted by Dean

And don't the STIs already come with teh group N tops?

Not for '04, but that may have changed since then.



In terms of suspension, almost anything is legal for STU/BSP, except the repeatedly mentioned ALK. Sways, struts, springs, strut tops all are legal in anything but stock. You have to be careful about braces though- avoid anything that isn't a 2-point brace that goes from one topmount to the other side. There are a small number of other braces that are legal, but it's dangerous territory, so avoid anything that isn't specifically mentioned as legal by someone who is running that mod at Nationals or national tour events.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Joeyy

Dean, do you think finally putting on the front Perrin sway bar wil keep all four of my tires on the ground. I'm also only on the middle setting on the rear sway...

No, unless you go with a gigantic Stock class special bar. springs will help though.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by Joeyy

Dean, do you think finally putting on the front Perrin sway bar wil keep all four of my tires on the ground. I'm also only on the middle setting on the rear sway...

The only way to gurantee to not lift the inside rear is to move the engine to the middle of the car, or carry 500lbs in the back. OK, I would be hard pressed to do it with my stiff suspension, but it is "normal", don't worry about it.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

In my RS, [blah blah blah]

Perhaps you are the one getting old and need glasses, Please reread my post.

GC 2 door RS does not equal GD Sedan.

My post specifically mentions buying the cheapest springs from a vendor/manufacturer you trust. While I didn't go into the details as to why, I never said go buy crap from eBay... Your recommendation to "buy first good deal that comes along" from a list of "known commodities" is hardly original.

I beleive the ALK has a significant impact over the legal bushing alone, and as I said, I don't believe the bushing is worth the effort and money unless you have already minimized roll to some extent, thus the recommendation of sway bars first.

OK, so we agree on sway bars... sort of. My point is that sway bars in combination with a still streetable and more importantly snow/iceable spring configuration will add dry performance by minimizing roll induced camber changes without nearly the impact to snow performance that purely stiff springs would.

And yes, the Strano AS bar is extreme, but I trust the people who are doing the engineering and more importantly the empirical testing on it. In conjunction with the purely stock springs, if there was known to be better, they would be using it. That's not to say there isn't a better solution, but as of right now, no one has publicly displayed a better one.

Again, it is all about compromise. It is probably to much for the snow, so the slightly stiffer springs and slightly stiffer bars on both ends will likely be a good compromise.

And last but not least, Kevin is right, apparently nothing shipped in the US comes with the Group N tops.

Oh, and rather than spending money on camber plates, since you are planning on retaining the stock struts/springs, in SP. you are allowed to slot the top mount holes for added camber if you so choose. A whole lot cheaper than camber plates, and would probably allow as much adjustment as long as nothing is in the way. More research would be required on that though before diving in with the round file... It worked greqat on my Lancia Beta back in the day...

[A1337STI]

Getting adjustable top-mounts will mean pillowball joints, and that means your ride quality (comfort) will take a HUGE hit.
....
Spring/strut/topmount replacements, sway bars, and strut tower braces are all safe for street touring and street prepared, I believe.

Thanks for the Information. huge ride quality hit, means no safe for ST and SP sweet. bad for my dwindling savings.

And don't the STIs already come with teh group N tops?...
....
As I understand, the legal ALK bushing is a pain in the ass and probably not worth the effort. If money is no object, go for it, but a sway bar would probably have more effect.

hmmf. i'll have to search more, if they come with groupN's then i'll stay with those, if not .. i'll buy some group Ns

okay i'm gonna skip the ALK bushing.

since Eibach makes the Prodrive spring to prodrives spec (and its fairly cheap, i think $265 ish ) i think i'll go with them. camber bolts 70 ish,
alignment (100 to 200 if i have them do the camber bolts)

Whiteline makes some cheap strut tower braces (since stock there is none this should be an upgrade ) ? think i'de be looking at about 1200 ish for springs, sways, strut towers, camber bolts, and an alignment afterwords. (and that's going with 150 ish strut towers and sways) then maybe 300 ish towards some sorta driving school ?

how much is any sort of performance driving class ? way more then mods ?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Perhaps you are the one getting old and need glasses, Please reread my post.

GC 2 door RS does not equal GD Sedan.

Actually, from somewhere between the coupe B pillar and the C pillars... yes it does. There were no fundamental changes to that part of the car for the GD. Or to any other part of the car really. When Gary crashed his USTCC WRX, he could just as easily bolted on a GC front end instead of the '04, if he had felt the need to reject the free parts he got.

Originally Posted by Dean

My post specifically mentions buying the cheapest springs from a vendor/manufacturer you trust. While I didn't go into the details as to why, I never said go buy crap from eBay... Your recommendation to "buy first good deal that comes along" from a list of "known commodities" is hardly original.

No, you said:

Originally Posted by Dean

Springs are wound steel wire. Buy the cheapest ones with the specs you want from a vendor/manufacturer you trust.

Where does that in any way exempt eBay crap from your suggestions?

Originally Posted by Dean

I beleive the ALK has a significant impact over the legal bushing alone, and as I said, I don't believe the bushing is worth the effort and money unless you have already minimized roll to some extent, thus the recommendation of sway bars first.

The full ALK is better, but the legal bushing is better than stock even without the camber gains due to stiffness. ALK>insert>stock, even for '05+. Also, we're not grading the order of mods... the discussion is about which mods will be good for him and which won't. The only thing that seems absolutely certain from every suggestion and argument is that springs and sways are recommended.

Originally Posted by Dean

OK, so we agree on sway bars... sort of. My point is that sway bars in combination with a still streetable and more importantly snow/iceable spring configuration will add dry performance by minimizing roll induced camber changes without nearly the impact to snow performance that purely stiff springs would.

Yes, sway bars + springs is probably better than springs alone for handling, but it adds nothing for non-competition driving.

Originally Posted by Dean

And yes, the Strano AS bar is extreme, but I trust the people who are doing the engineering and more importantly the empirical testing on it. In conjunction with the purely stock springs, if there was known to be better, they would be using it. That's not to say there isn't a better solution, but as of right now, no one has publicly displayed a better one.

I definitely agree that the massive front sway is the fastest setup- in A Stock. I doubt we'll see it on cars that have the ability to use proper springs and dampers in almost any STi application. Somebody ask Gary what he's got on his Speed GT car...

Originally Posted by Dean

Again, it is all about compromise. It is probably to much for the snow, so the slightly stiffer springs and slightly stiffer bars on both ends will likely be a good compromise.

Yes. We're not building an A Stock PAX champion; it's a daily driven car whose owner wants to have more fun driving at autocross and track events. I have brought this up before when we have discussed classing options with people in the past. There are basically 3 reasons to run in stock- You're either chasing championships, or you can't afford mods, or you're planning to get some seat time before moving up. But there isn't a Subaru made that I'd rather run stock than in ST or SP, and your 3 modded cars suggest you feel the same.

Originally Posted by Dean

And last but not least, Kevin is right, apparently nothing shipped in the US comes with the Group N tops.

Sucks, too. They help handling quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Dean

Oh, and rather than spending money on camber plates, since you are planning on retaining the stock struts/springs, in SP. you are allowed to slot the top mount holes for added camber if you so choose. A whole lot cheaper than camber plates, and would probably allow as much adjustment as long as nothing is in the way. More research would be required on that though before diving in with the round file... It worked greqat on my Lancia Beta back in the day...

Whoa there- the reason camber plates are ineffective with stock diameter springs is the perch hitting the strut tower itself. Slotting the strut tops is cheaper than camber plates, but no more effective and potentially disastrous if improperly done. I doubt many of us would start cutting up our $32,000 cars to save $300 on parts. Besides, I think your real motivation with that suggestion is to make it so off the shelf strut braces don't fit.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

how much is any sort of performance driving class ? way more then mods ?

Prodrive springs, GrpN tops, sways, and STBs will pretty much cover your suspension mods for the foreseeable future. If you ever decide you really want to chase a [legitimate ] class winner jacket, you'll need coilovers. But until then, you'll have a faster, more fun car to drive that's still perfectly useable the other 99.9% of the time you're driving it.

As for schools, try to tag along with Dean to the Evolution schools if you can. They are hands down the best autocross schools you can go to. I wish I could make one this year, but I jsut don't think I'll have the time and funds.

[Dean]

The torsional stiffness of a GC Coupe is not equal to that of a GD sedan, no matter how much of the car is the same, period.

ebay crap and "vendor/manufacturer you trust" are mutually exclusive to everyone aparently but you.

You may not choose to, but my post certianly differentiated order of value between some if not most of my suggestions, and IMHO sway bars > ALK bushing.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Yes, sway bars + springs is probably better than springs alone for handling, but it adds nothing for non-competition driving.

I have no idea what that sentence means. Anything that is good for competitive driving certianly adds something to non-competitive driving. Parts don't stop working at the edge of the track like some automotive equivelant to a corn field at the edge of a baseball diamond. Good or bad, physics is pretty darn contigious. If this is about springs vs. sway bars, I refuse to get into that holy war. Springs work independently, and swar bars work laterally. They are apples and oranges, and IMHO should be used in conjunction to meet the needs/wants of the car/driver.

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Somebody ask Gary what he's got on his Speed GT car...

What the hell does a dedicated race car suspension have to do with this discussion?

There are way more than 3 reasons to keep a car stock.

And slotted towers are permitted, cheap, and functional and are therefore an option. I'm not going to not present it just because it may preclude some other mod, or if done incorectly could damage the car. Doing just about any mod on a car wrong could damage it or stress other component to the point of failure. Sticky tires and larger wheels wear out wheel bearings, yet you regularly reccomend those without caveat. And don't tell me wheel bearing failure can't damage your car.

Feel free to rant further about the minutia of my posts. I won't be reading or responding to it. If you have something technical to contribute, please do so.

[M3n2c3]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

since Eibach makes the Prodrive spring to prodrives spec (and its fairly cheap, i think $265 ish ) i think i'll go with them. camber bolts 70 ish,
alignment (100 to 200 if i have them do the camber bolts)

Whiteline makes some cheap strut tower braces (since stock there is none this should be an upgrade ) ? think i'de be looking at about 1200 ish for springs, sways, strut towers, camber bolts, and an alignment afterwords. (and that's going with 150 ish strut towers and sways) then maybe 300 ish towards some sorta driving school ?

Again, I'd skip the strut tower braces and put that money towards adjustable struts. You'll see more of a return from being able to adjust and balance damping on your suspension.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

how much is any sort of performance driving class ? way more then mods ?

Driving instruction, and seat time are better than just about any mod in terms of making your car faster, and safer.

Based on your comment about dwindling savings, I'd suggest droping the strut bars, and just do the springs, and group N tops to start with and maybe even living with whatever the stock bolts will give you.

You will learn to be a much better driver the worse your car is for the most part. Spend the money on seat time, and instruction. A 2 day Audi event can be $300-$500 bucks, a 1 day Hooked on Driving or similar event is $150-$200, and a 1 day evolution Autocross school usualy falls somwhere in between $200-$300.

When I was starting out, I think I drove my A4 1.8T bone stock on all season tires for at least a year before getting tires, wheels, and a stage 1 chip. Never did change the suspension in 3 years, and about 3000 track miles and certianly not since.

Learn to drive, and then make your own decisions on where the mod money would best be applied.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

Springs are wound steel wire. Buy the cheapest ones with the specs you want from a vendor/manufacturer you trust.

In the words of Carroll Smith, "Good springs are hard to come by. Bad springs are not. - Use no cheap springs." Look at a manufacturer's guaranteed maximum percentage deviation from their target rates. I wouldn't buy from anyone that's over +/- 5%. The best will be more like 1-2%. If they don't even give a rate guarantee, forget it.

Originally Posted by Dean

Anything that is good for competitive driving certianly adds something to non-competitive driving.

Yeah, like stiffer, noisier, old-washing-machine-vibration ride quality.

[sybir]

Originally Posted by Dean

Oh, and rather than spending money on camber plates, since you are planning on retaining the stock struts/springs, in SP. you are allowed to slot the top mount holes for added camber if you so choose. A whole lot cheaper than camber plates, and would probably allow as much adjustment as long as nothing is in the way. More research would be required on that though before diving in with the round file... It worked greqat on my Lancia Beta back in the day...

All I'm going to say is that slotting tops on a Subaru scares me. You have tophat bolts with a torque spec of 15 pounds, which is just snug, not clamped down. Those bolts are meant purely to keep the suspension from dropping out of the car at full extension; ask anyone who's broken strut top bolts whether they think 15 pounds of force is going to hold a camber setting.

I realize you're not wholeheartedly recommending that path, but let's not add potential parts failures to a new guy's mod list, even hypothetically.

[MikeK]

Alex, you need to think long and hard before you go to stiffer springs and tophats on a car that you're driving every day. Just make sure you are ok with the free spinal adjustments and hearing loss from driving on the rough roads around here.

I would start with adjustable front and rear sway bars/endlinks/mounts and a more aggressive alignment. That will totally change the balance of the car, yet keep the setup soft enough for daily driving, and retain as much clearance as possible for the snow. After a year on coilovers on the street, I am seriously thinking of going back to stock struts and springs for next winter.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

The torsional stiffness of a GC Coupe is not equal to that of a GD sedan, no matter how much of the car is the same, period.

ebay crap and "vendor/manufacturer you trust" are mutually exclusive to everyone aparently but you.

You may not choose to, but my post certianly differentiated order of value between some if not most of my suggestions, and IMHO sway bars > ALK bushing.

I have no idea what that sentence means. Anything that is good for competitive driving certianly adds something to non-competitive driving. Parts don't stop working at the edge of the track like some automotive equivelant to a corn field at the edge of a baseball diamond. Good or bad, physics is pretty darn contigious. If this is about springs vs. sway bars, I refuse to get into that holy war. Springs work independently, and swar bars work laterally. They are apples and oranges, and IMHO should be used in conjunction to meet the needs/wants of the car/driver.

What the hell does a dedicated race car suspension have to do with this discussion?

There are way more than 3 reasons to keep a car stock.

And slotted towers are permitted, cheap, and functional and are therefore an option. I'm not going to not present it just because it may preclude some other mod, or if done incorectly could damage the car. Doing just about any mod on a car wrong could damage it or stress other component to the point of failure. Sticky tires and larger wheels wear out wheel bearings, yet you regularly reccomend those without caveat. And don't tell me wheel bearing failure can't damage your car.

Feel free to rant further about the minutia of my posts. I won't be reading or responding to it. If you have something technical to contribute, please do so.

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

[bruspeed]

Buy my wheels for teh winter tire mod.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

Kevin, I'm sorry for being an ass last night/this morning. My post was rude, inflammatory, and not particularly technical, or productive, the very things I ended up blasting you on.

Please accept my apologies.

I should know better than to post at 1am when I am tired and grumpy.

[cody]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I would start with adjustable front and rear sway bars/endlinks/mounts and a more aggressive alignment. That will totally change the balance of the car, yet keep the setup soft enough for daily driving, and retain as much clearance as possible for the snow.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Kevin, I'm sorry for being an ass last night/this morning. My post was rude, inflammatory, and not particularly technical, or productive, the very things I ended up blasting you on.

Please accept my apologies.

I should know better than to post at 1am when I am tired and grumpy.

Apology accepted.

/Darth Vader

It seems the closer we are to agreeing on something technical, the worse the semantics and arguing gets.

[A1337STI]

Well damn, 1 Day of driving school for $300 or less would be Great! I always thought a driving school of any sort would cost a lot more then that. (that will have to be moved above , all other mods) still may leave me enough for Sways, endlinks, and an alignment (i'll still have window creek, and a more linear spring rate) but since i have no GroupN topmounts, i'll hold off on springs unless i can pony up for top mounts as the same time. so maybe i'll brake this mod plan into a few stages

stage 0 (attend the 1st availble driver school)
Stage 1 endlinks, sways, alignment
stage 2 springs, group-n tops (prodrive tops for prodrive springs?)
stage 3 strut tower braces, autocross legal ALK-type bushing

In a perfect world i could do all the mods the Day before going to a driving school where i learn in my own car. is the hooked on driving school in your own car and the evolution school is in an lancer Evo ?
I could jump on the school when ever availble. I think i'm going to wait until i get an other check out of my side work to buy anything just yet . though i paid off my CC and its loney with out a balance...

if i did the springs first, I may be (or someone else rather) able to judge how much of a sway bar increase i'de need to kill most of the roll during heavy corners, (that and saving 1 alignment ) may make me think to save $ doing the springs and group n tops 1st, or at the same time. guess i could just save up longer, do more mods at once (so that i only get 1 alignment done)

[sperry]

Two things:

compromise

and

creak unless you're talking about the small river in your windshield.