VA Tech shooting!

[MPREZIV]

WTF is wrong with people!? Some psycho locks people in a dorm, and just starts killing them!

Hell, just read the story, it'll describe it better than me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

[sperry]

I've been following this on AP and CNN all day. Pretty f'd up. The rumor is that some guy had a spat w/ his GF, shot the RA at her dorm, then 2 hours later used a couple of handguns to massacre a classroom full of students. Last I heard 31 dead, including the shooter, but no news if he was killed by the cops or himself.

[Nick Koan]

Yeah, crazy. I didn't see the news till just a few minutes ago.

[ScottyS]

Man, that's not good. How does someone get that many rounds off, from handguns, and not get tackled? I guess we'll see what happened eventually, maybe some potential victims took him down in the end....

The political fallout wont be pleasant either. Didn't they tell him that guns are illegal on campus?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Man, that's not good. How does someone get that many rounds off, from handguns, and not get tackled? I guess we'll see what happened eventually, maybe some potential victims took him down in the end....

The political fallout wont be pleasant either. Didn't they tell him that guns are illegal on campus?

Apparently in '05/'06 there was a big hoopla at the VT campus over a guy w/ a CCW getting in trouble for legally bringing a handgun to class. In Jan '06 VT made guns on campus illegal, even for registered CCW people. There will certainly be a lot of discussion about this when the dust settles over this incident.

The other issue, the dorm shooting happened like 2 hours before the classroom shooting... and yet all those people we unaware that there was a gun-man on the loose on campus, putting them in harms way.

And I can imagine if someone walks into an unsuspecting classroom w/ a pair of handguns and a vest full of spare clips he'll be able to kill a lot of people w/o being tackled. In fact the rumors are that at some point he was locked outside the room, but shot through the door into the room.

[ScottyS]

Yeah, campus "security" totally dropped the ball with a 2hr window between events. Actually, I can't even fathom how that happened. Probably a case of too much CYA going on, and not enough real leadership.

Yep, a responsible CCW holder might have ended things a few killings early.

As far as the victim resistance bit goes, close quarters 1 vs. 25, the guy with the handguns will lose. Unless he was a trained professional, extra guns and mags only help if you have lots of extra time. There's a reason why they train cops not to attempt a draw if a perp is rushing them inside 30ft and they don't already have the gun out. My point there is that the reoccuring theme in every major event like this is the typical lack of resistance offered. I know, I know, keyboard commando warning....

I heard that one class saw him coming, slammed the door and wedged it. He dropped a couple rounds through the door to no avail and continued down the hall.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Yeah, campus "security" totally dropped the ball with a 2hr window between events. Actually, I can't even fathom how that happened. Probably a case of too much CYA going on, and not enough real leadership.

Yep, a responsible CCW holder might have ended things a few killings early.

As far as the victim resistance bit goes, close quarters 1 vs. 25, the guy with the handguns will lose. Unless he was a trained professional, extra guns and mags only help if you have lots of extra time. There's a reason why they train cops not to attempt a draw if a perp is rushing them inside 30ft and they don't already have the gun out. My point there is that the reoccuring theme in every major event like this is the typical lack of resistance offered. I know, I know, keyboard commando warning....

I heard that one class saw him coming, slammed the door and wedged it. He dropped a couple rounds through the door to no avail and continued down the hall.

It makes sense that a cop wouldn't want to draw down on someone that's close and intent on assaulting you. However, the shooter here wasn't being assaulted. "Fish in a barrel" comes to mind. I can't even fathom how horrifying it must have been to be in that classroom. How many people, half asleep in class at 9am, are prepared to literally fight for their lives at a moment's notice? I doubt I could have done anything in that situation.

Heros are called heros because they're rare. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like there was anyone in the room able to step up and try to save the day... or if there was, they weren't quick enough.

[JonnydaJibba]

Geez this sucks! This is probably one of the worst things I have ever heard about. It's made me feel sick all day.

[ScottyS]

Hmmm, we'll see how many classrooms were involved. I still can't believe the length of timeline, even within the class building.....crazy. The internet rumour mill is saying Malaysian or similar on the shooter, with questionable ID.


From the Roanoke Times when the CCW bill was shot down:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

From the VT Prez today:

"We can't have an armed guard in front of every classroom every day of the year."


Huh, I guess the qualification courses, FBI background checks, and signoff by local law enforcement --- all required for CCW --- isn't good enough...

[Kevin M]

CCWs probably wouldn't have made a big difference. How many college students would have one, and how many of those would bother carrying on a daily basis to go to a 9 am Stats class?

What I want to know is why it took so long for somebody to figure out what was going on. Hell, my high school had telephones in every classroom that could intercom with all the others...

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

CCWs probably wouldn't have made a big difference. How many college students would have one, and how many of those would bother carrying on a daily basis to go to a 9 am Stats class?

What I want to know is why it took so long for somebody to figure out what was going on. Hell, my high school had telephones in every classroom that could intercom with all the others...

The school apparently sent out some e-mails.

The Washington Post published them here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041601105.html

So, two hours after the shooting students are told about it, but in a non-strongly worded e-mail. I read in one article that one interviewed student mentions she paid no attention to it since it sounding like everything was resolved and went off to class anyway. They probably should have canceled all classes for the day at 7:15 when the first 911 call was made, not when the shooter starts the second part of the rampage.

9:26 a.m.

Subject: Shooting on campus.

A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning.

Police are on the scene and are investigating.

The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious or with information on the case. Contact Virginia Tech Police at 231-6411 Stay attuned to the www.vt.edu. We will post as soon as we have more information.

9:50 a.m.

Subject: Please stay put

A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows.

10:16 a.m.

Subject: All Classes Canceled; Stay where you are

Virginia Tech has canceled all classes. Those on campus are asked to remain where there are, lock their doors and stay away from windows. Persons off campus are asked not to come to campus.

10:52 a.m.

Subject: Second Shooting Reported; Police have one gunman in custody

In addition to an earlier shooting today in West Ambler Johnston, there has been a multiple shooting with multiple victims in Norris Hall.

Police and EMS are on the scene.

Police have one shooter in custody and as part of routine police procedure, they continue to search for a second shooter.

All people in university buildings are required to stay inside until further notice.

All entrances to campus are closed.

[knucklesplitter]

I went to Tech. My dormroom window looked out across the field to the West AJ dorm where the first shooting happened. I had several classes in Norris Hall over the years. Used to meet my GF on the steps of Holden Hall which is the other wing of the same building. What an awful f-ing thing to happen to such a nice place - such a great school. It really is a beautiful campus - kinda rural, very quiet. I hate to think what it will be like for the victim's families and friends. 33 people dead - this will touch everybody there, even on such a big campus of 20k+ students. I hope Va.Tech will not end up being remembered only for this like Kent State is for its notorious shooting. What a heinous aweful f-ing thing...

[JonnydaJibba]

The more I read and hear about about this the more horrible I feel. This should never happen to people. I can't imagine what it's like over in that part of the country right now. The students, the faculty, the families... it's absolutely terrible.

[100_Percent_Juice]

I cant really think of anything that would prevent something like this from happening. The impact could be minimized if there was a proper system in place for in the event when this does happen. Perhaps this event will make the school district more aware of this real threat. If they have a fire alarm for fires to instantly alert everyone why cant they have a second alarm for something like this.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I don't really agree with the procedures in place to deal with these events. The schools tell everyone to just go on "lockdown", everyone stay where they are and the police will come rescue you. So people just huddle in a corner while a madman is stalking from room to room massacring people. Fuck that. I don't care what the schools tell you, I'm teaching my kid to either run or fight if something like that ever happens near them. Get the hell away or take them down, don't just lay there and "play dead" so he can put a bullet in the back of your head nice and easy. Christ, at least give him a moving target.

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

... Get the hell away or take them down, don't just lay there and "play dead" so he can put a bullet in the back of your head nice and easy. Christ, at least give him a moving target.

I whole-heartedly agree. Everybody says it's different when you're actually there, and I in a way, have been. Trust me, I ran like a little bitch! I can't see just cowering in a corner hoping nothing bad happens to you.

There were "reports" of students diving out of windows toward saftey, so it seems at least not EVERYONE played possum.

This is absolutely horrible to me. My GF's mom asked if we weren't "shocked and disgusted". I told her disgusted yes, but shocked, no, not really. With shit like this going on around the world on a daily basis, it's not too far fetched to me honestly. Terrible, but true.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

I whole-heartedly agree. Everybody says it's different when you're actually there, and I in a way, have been. Trust me, I ran like a little bitch! I can't see just cowering in a corner hoping nothing bad happens to you.

There were "reports" of students diving out of windows toward saftey, so it seems at least not EVERYONE played possum.

This is absolutely horrible to me. My GF's mom asked if we weren't "shocked and disgusted". I told her disgusted yes, but shocked, no, not really. With shit like this going on around the world on a daily basis, it's not too far fetched to me honestly. Terrible, but true.

The guy was standing 5 feet inside the only door in/out of the classroom with two semi-auto handguns, and evidently he knew what to do with them. I'm not sure where you expect these kids to run to. And attack him unarmed?!? Prolly half the kids in the classes survived doing nothing. If you attacked him then I'd give your chances at 1 in 10. The odds are better playing possum. Luckily the vast vast majority of people will never face this situation. I mean it's not like we live in Iraq, where 58 people were killed in political violence yesterday. 32 massacred is considered a mild day there since our... occupation.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

The guy was standing 5 feet inside the only door in/out of the classroom with two semi-auto handguns, and evidently he knew what to do with them. I'm not sure where you expect these kids to run to. And attack him unarmed?!? Prolly half the kids in the classes survived doing nothing. If you attacked him then I'd give your chances at 1 in 10. The odds are better playing possum.

That didn't work out too well for the kids in the library at Columbine, where the shooters walked around methodically putting rounds through everyone "playing possum". Or here either, it sounds like. Only 4 out of 25 people in one classroom able to walk out on their own after the bloodbath?

Even if 10 people rushed him and most were killed before taking him down, that's a lot fewer people dead than 30+.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

That didn't work out too well for the kids in the library at Columbine, where the shooters walked around methodically putting rounds through everyone "playing possum". Or here either, it sounds like. Only 4 out of 25 people in one classroom able to walk out on their own after the bloodbath?

Even if 10 people rushed him and most were killed before taking him down, that's a lot fewer people dead than 30+.

Well you can be one of the 10. That's the attitude most would have in that situation. Also, those kids from Columbine were nuts. They told people they wouldn't shoot them and that they could run away and when they did they shot them in the back. I'm not really sure you can rely on one thing to do during something like this. There are too many variables.

[100_Percent_Juice]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Even if 10 people rushed him and most were killed before taking him down, that's a lot fewer people dead than 30+.

I dont know if you have ever had a gun pulled on you but its not something that your mind can really prepare for. And everyone acts like this guy knocked on the door "im gonna come in and start shooting so get ready for that". It was probably extremely fast and the sound of a firearm in a closed room like that alone would be enough to drop you to the floor. Unless you have years of police training I doubt you will do much besides piss your pants or run(which there was no where for them to run). I can tell you this much. If we were playing paintball and I knew that I was going into a room full of people that I needed to shoot(even if you knew I was coming) I could waste half of you before you could even react. Let alone anyone running at me unarmed. I just think its real easy to minimize the situation and say "oh I would have totally done this" when you havnt been in it.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

Well you can be one of the 10. That's the attitude most would have in that situation. Also, those kids from Columbine were nuts. They told people they wouldn't shoot them and that they could run away and when they did they shot them in the back. I'm not really sure you can rely on one thing to do during something like this. There are too many variables.

Of course you can't rely on one single thing. But laying there waiting to die is sure as shit not a good option.

[knucklesplitter]

These were college kids sitting in French class in bucolic rural smalltown Virginia, where being attacked by a crazed asian gunman is always a looming possibility. I can't believe they didn't remember what they learned in combat training, especially the girlz. Those compact cases can be deadly weapons. You must always be prepared. Around 600 Americans die each year from falling out of bed, and that's why I always wear my harness when I sleep. Thousands die of head injuries in car accidents, so that's why I alway wear a helmet when heading to Starbucks for my venti double vanilla latte with a touch of cinnamon. Certainly we should all be heavily armed at all times (especially in French class for gawd's sakes!!11!) to be prepared for that one in 2.378 million chance* that it might make a difference in incidents like this that happen "all the time" "these days".



*Taxes, tags, and title not included. OAC. Please see gun dealer for details.

[sperry]

You guys are basically arguing which direction should I face when getting hit by a Mac Truck. Fight, Flight, "Play Dead"... they're all pretty hopeless. I'd like to think I'd try to do something to save myself, if not others in the room, but who knows really what I'd do. I gotta think that running for it would give you at least a tiny bit more chance, since you're a moving target... but if the guy's not actually intent on killing everyone, that also makes you into a higher priority target for him.

Would 10 people rushing him have worked? Probably, but you can't get 10 people to work together to order sandwiches... so unless the VT Rugby team was in that room, I got to think the gunman would be able to stop a "rush".

All in all, it's an extremely sad situation. The real issue here is not "what to do when the gunman attacks", or about gun control vs. CCW or 2nd Amendment rights (as this situation seems to be bringing up over at NASIOC), it's really a question of "what makes people snap like this, and how to we prevent it". This poor kid lost his shit and decided to kill himself and take a bunch of people with him... that's not normal behavior... I guess considering the population of the nation and our belief that freedom trumps safety, we should expect something like this every few decades, but a kid in school should have the resources available to him to get help before it comes to this.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Of course you can't rely on one single thing. But laying there waiting to die is sure as shit not a good option.

In this case it saved some people. Kids survived by playing dead. But that may not work in another case.

Originally Posted by sperry

"what makes people snap like this, and how to we prevent it".

Too bad we can't prevent crazy.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

In this case it saved some people. Kids survived by playing dead. But that may not work in another case.



Too bad we can't prevent crazy.

You may not be able to "prevent crazy" in all cases, but if you know homie is crazy, you can prevent him shooting up a classroom or four.