Swamp Cooler vs. A/C

[Dean]

Weather is about here as well. I can tell because my Swamp cooler stopped doing much... It's only about 6 degrees cooler inside than out.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Weather is about here as well. I can tell because my Swamp cooler stopped doing much... It's only about 6 degrees cooler inside than out.

Really? Our AC is still doing what we tell it to do, which is cool it off until we say it's done cooling.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Really? Our AC is still doing what we tell it to do, which is cool it off until we say it's done cooling.

But you're using twelve cents a day more power!??!??!?!

[cody]

cold air burn

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

But you're using twelve cents a day more power!??!??!?!

Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate. In out climate, that is somewhere north of $500/year... That's a set of Autocross tires...

Wallet burn...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate. In out climate, that is somewhere north of $500/year... That's a set of Autocross tires...

Wallet burn...

I'm not sweating. BOburn.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Try about 80% lower energy costs to operate. In out climate, that is somewhere north of $500/year... That's a set of Autocross tires...

Wallet burn...

Sure 80% lower, when you compare running an A/C set at 70F and a swamp cooler that gets the place down to 85F when it's 100F outside.

Compare apples to apples... how much does it cost a swamp cooler to keep a house at 72F all summer long vs. 72F from an A/C. Oh wait... swampers can't do that... not to mention all the added humidity from a swamp cooler that makes it feel warmer inside than it actually is.

Your 80% savings is like comparing my F-250's fuel mileage while towing to a moped. Sure the scooter is 80% cheaper to operate per mile... but it's not exactly towing 6000 lbs very easily.

[cody]

analogy burn

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

analogy burn

I'm not knocking swamp coolers, they're awesome for places like Reno, since they work really well for cheap in low humidity environments... but they can't do more than 15-20 deg cooler than ambient, and they don't de-humidify... two things you get with a real heat-pump A/C.

I'd love a swamp cooler in my garage... but I don't think I could live without a real A/C in the house, regardless of how much more "expensive" they are to operate.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'd love a swamp cooler in my garage... but I don't think I could live without a real A/C in the house, regardless of how much more "expensive" they are to operate.

Werd.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Sure 80% lower, when you compare running an A/C set at 70F and a swamp cooler that gets the place down to 85F when it's 100F outside.

Compare apples to apples... how much does it cost a swamp cooler to keep a house at 72F all summer long vs. 72F from an A/C. Oh wait... swampers can't do that... not to mention all the added humidity from a swamp cooler that makes it feel warmer inside than it actually is.

Your 80% savings is like comparing my F-250's fuel mileage while towing to a moped. Sure the scooter is 80% cheaper to operate per mile... but it's not exactly towing 6000 lbs very easily.

You know me better than that...

http://www.h2ouse.net/tour/details/e...3CAEFB6E12CC4D

Same target temp, 1600 foot house 2003 data & energy costs... It is probably at least 10% higher today plus larger sq. feet.

If you want to see more data on the newer 2 stage coolers which add very little humidity and run as low as 1/24th the operating cost of AC over time, go here... http://www.oasysairconditioner.com/

In this climate, the added humidity is actual good compared to the drying affect of AC.

My swamp cooler isn't large enough to really cool this house which is why it gets warm. If it was, it would already be cool enough in here and the extra humidity would not matter.

[Kevin M]

That link doesn't specifically say what temperature was targeted, or that it was the same for both units.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

That link doesn't specifically say what temperature was targeted, or that it was the same for both units.

The first link doesn't, but one of the referenced sources on that page does and the second does on their tech page, and do you honestly think an independent source doing a side by side comparison and publishing results would change the criteria?

Whatever...

[Kevin M]

Dean: I am saving money with my swamp cooler.

The rest of us: We are not any warmer in our homes in the summer than we wish to be thanks to our AC.

Swamp coolers cost less to operate but they don't have the capabilities AC does. It's not, and will never be, apples to oranges comparison.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Swamp coolers cost less to operate but they don't have the capabilities AC does. It's not, and will never be, apples to oranges comparison.

They both accomplish the same goal: Maintaining a desired effective temperature for the person setting the thermostat.

Except dehumidifying which is a negative in this climate, what exactly does AC do that evaporative cooling doesn't?

[Kevin M]

Remind me again, how hot was it in your house last thrsday? I can't remember exactly, but I do remember that it was significantly warmer than it was in my house.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Remind me again, how hot was it in your house last thrsday? I can't remember exactly, but I do remember that it was significantly warmer than it was in my house.

From Post 29:

Originally Posted by Dean

My swamp cooler isn't large enough to really cool this house which is why it gets warm. If it was, it would already be cool enough in here and the extra humidity would not matter.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

They both accomplish the same goal: Maintaining a desired effective temperature for the person setting the thermostat.

Except dehumidifying which is a negative in this climate, what exactly does AC do that evaporative cooling doesn't?

My A/C can make it 70F/10% when it's 100F/80% outside. A swamp cooler doesn't work for better than about 25 degrees cooler regardless of the size, and doesn't work nearly at all once the ambient humidity is over 30%.

Plus, dehumidifying is not a negative, even in Reno's dry climate. Humidity raises the heat index, so less humid air feels cooler, even if it's the difference between 15% outside and 10% inside.

If swampcoolers and A/Cs really were the same thing, why don't you see computer labs that need cooling 24/7 running big swampcoolers... it would save them 80% on their massive cooling bills, wouldn't it? The answer of course is that swampcoolers, while much cheaper to operate, have a much smaller operational range where they're truly useful. Try running a swampcooler when it's 20F outside... now you have a block of ice on the roof. Meanwhile real air conditioning is trucking right along keeping that server room at 68F/30%.

Apples and oranges. Like I said, I'd love a swamper in the garage 'cause it'd be 15F cooler in there on a hot summer day, but I don't want to try to keep my house comfortable with one even if it's a ton cheaper. I like my house cool and dry, regardless of the outside conditions, and regardless of the additional cost.

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by sperry

If swampcoolers and A/Cs really were the same thing, why don't you see computer labs that need cooling 24/7 running big swampcoolers... it would save them 80% on their massive cooling bills, wouldn't it?

I do comercial controls on HVAC equipment for a living. We run into the occasional swamp cooler. Everything else is Built-up air handler/VAV or package unit/Heat pump (including CRAC units).
Several hundred to one others vs. swampy.

[100_Percent_Juice]

I have to stick with dean on this. I just installed a swamp cooler last week and it got the house down to 67 when it was 95 outside. And the extra humidity has been nice, I don't really miss waking up with a dry nose and throat.

[Dean]

The goal is comfort, right?

Go read the links, and especially about the 2 stage coolers, you might learn something... This page is quite informative... http://www.oasysairconditioner.com/environment.html

They only slightly raise the humidity, and the air motion more than makes up for the increase in perceived temperature. And humidity is good and dry air is bad for you from physiologically perspective. Even in single stage coolers, the humidity rise is seldom uncomfortable, and again, the air motion often makes up for the difference in perceived temperature.

Do you know anything about commercial HVAC? A large percentage of it is not what you would call Air Conditioning at your home because it is too damn expensive!!! There are chillers, cooling towers, a whole lot of water, heat exchangers, etc... In many ways a cross between the two technologies, and in the appropriate climates, many companies do use large 2 stage evaporative cooling systems. I'll bet you money IGT's Computer rooms are not cooled by freon condensers, compressors and such like your house!!!!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3

I do comercial controls on HVAC equipment for a living. We run into the occasional swamp cooler. Everything else is Built-up air handler/VAV or package unit/Heat pump (including CRAC units).
Several hundred to one others vs. swampy.

I defer to you on the details of the large systems. I have only seen pieces and parts in the large buildings I've worked in the bowels of doing wiring, etc.

I do recall a whole lot of water being cooled and pumped around, heat exchangers, air handlers, etc. as I described one post up.

In CA and AZ, there appear to be far more Commercial 2 stage Evap systems, but they appear to only be gaining favor more recently and are just starting to make their way into homes.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

I have to stick with dean on this. I just installed a swamp cooler last week and it got the house down to 67 when it was 95 outside. And the extra humidity has been nice, I don't really miss waking up with a dry nose and throat.

Super. It doesn't change the fact that a swampcooler cannot do the same thing as an air conditioner. Just because a swampcooler is more efficient under ideal ambient conditions (95F, low humidity is pretty ideal for evaporative cooling) doesn't make the swampcooler more efficient in general.

If your target conditions are unachievable, then your efficiency is 0. An A/C can work outside the conditions of a swampcooler, and therefore comparing the two requires a massive asterisk next to the comparison. This "80% more efficient" claim is bunk unless you specify "under ideal swampcooler conditions with a target temp within the reach of the swamp cooler". Show me that 80% cost savings when it's 95F outside and 22F inside... oh wait evaporative coolers can't be used for refrigeration.

I refer back to the diesel truck vs moped analogy. Just because both things are "vehicles" doesn't make a comparison of their mileage useful. You might as well compare one dude with a shovel vs. a crane operated excavator and say that the one dude is the "more efficient" mining tool because it only requires a single operator compared to the crane's crew of 7.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

Try running a swampcooler when it's 20F outside... now you have a block of ice on the roof. Meanwhile real air conditioning is trucking right along keeping that server room at 68F/30%.

If the designers weren't retarded, they'd just be running the air handler fan and pulling in outside air for the cooling load if it's 20F outside.

But you're right, overall the typical swamp cooler has a fairly narrow useful operating range.

Do you know anything about commercial HVAC? A large percentage of it is not what you would call Air Conditioning at your home because it is too damn expensive!!! There are chillers, cooling towers, a whole lot of water, heat exchangers, etc... In many ways a cross between the two technologies, and in the appropriate climates, many companies do use large 2 stage evaporative cooling systems. I'll bet you money IGT's Computer rooms are not cooled by freon condensers, compressors and such like your house!!!!

A residential swamp cooler is not really analogous with a campus-sized pumped water loop, cooling tower, chiller, etc. setup. Even water-cooled chillers use refrigerant; they're like A/C units that cool down a chilled water loop instead of air, and their waste heat goes into a warm water loop that dumps into the cooling towers. The chilled water is pumped through heat exchangers in the air handlers that then blow design temp/humidity air into the conditioned spaces.

Your house unit cools by simply putting the supply air in direct contact with some water, resulting in cooler, more humid supply air.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

A residential swamp cooler is not really analogous with a campus-sized pumped water loop, cooling tower, chiller, etc. setup. Even water-cooled chillers use refrigerant; they're like A/C units that cool down a chilled water loop instead of air, and their waste heat goes into a warm water loop that dumps into the cooling towers. The chilled water is pumped through heat exchangers in the air handlers that then blow design temp/humidity air into the conditioned spaces.

Your house unit cools by simply putting the supply air in direct contact with some water, resulting in cooler, more humid supply air.

I said they were different, didn't I?

And in at least the one in the building I used to work in, there was free flowing water being cooled by outside air. Now if we want to call that an open radiator instead of evaporative cooling, I'll buy that to an extent.

My points was that large computer rooms and buildings are not cooled by the same technology that cools the typical American home, and at least some of the principles of evaporative cooling and the heat capacity of water are used in many of them.

At least 2 of the Harrah's NV locations have backup evaporative cooling systems for their computer rooms which can be more easily driven by emergency power than their normal cooling systems.