2007-2008 Reno SCCA Silly Season thread

[Kevin M]

Every year there are plenty of changes in cars, equipment, classing, co-driving etc., as well as new rules proposals that deserve discussion. This year's hot topic for the winter seems to be requiring a bumping order for single-entry classes. There will probably also be plenty fo arguing and bench-racing over the new PAX factors, which in turn will lead to more people changing classes, cars, or just complaining louder.

Personally, I'm planning on running in FSP next year in the little red wagon, assuming I have it running by April! I had been strongly considering a hit off the Hoosier pipe, but now I might have a codriver so I'm going to end up on Bridgestones. At any rate, I am looking forward to the new season even more than I was last winter.

[sperry]

Silly season indeed.

Upcoming arguments:

Bumping order... use the SCCA national order? use our own regional rules? use PAX factors to equalize competition? don't use it at all?

PAX... use the "national" factors? use our own factors? use Jim Gandy's high-altitude conversion stuff? don't use it at all?

Street Tire... keep using it for inter-class PAX competition? drop street tire PAX all together? go back to a street tire class? require street tire on Stock classes in the region? street tire is ruining autocross?

Novice... keep a year-long novice program? try to get novices into a points class ASAP? have participation points for novices?

[Kevin M]

Bumping order... I say leave it alone, or at most just tell everyone running unopposed that if they want more competition they can bump themselves to the next class. But I really don't like the idea of pushing people out of their correct class just so someone else can feel like there's more "competition" in the region- especially since it's not really fair competition.

PAX- it's not perfect, never will be, and we don't have the resources to substantially improve it. I vote for adopting national PAX again, accepting that it will give some class(es) a slight advantage, and march on.

Street Tire modifier- how many times do we need to see the top 5 or 10 PAX spots go to race tires at Stead before people admit that the race tires actually have an advantage over the length of the season?

Novice- I plan to suggest that we adopt a rule that you only get one full season in Novice. If you ran 9 of 17 events this season, you are ineligible for it next season, but you can still run the entire schedule of your rookie year if you wish.

[Nick Koan]

The race tire bug has bit me.

I think I'm going to try to get some Hoosiers or Kuhmos before the start of next season.

[sperry]

Kevin, Novice already has that rule. What many of the long term members are pushing for is to give a Novice say 4 events before they must move to a points class. I think they feel like the novice program is reducing the competition in the points classes because we have all these people essentially out there running no-points for a whole season.

My counter to that is:

1) Novices wouldn't be much for adding real competition in the points classes until late in the season simply 'cause they're novices after all

2) Just having a warm body in a points class doesn't really add "competition" if they're going to be beat by 10 seconds ever event

3) Being whooped on every event 'cause you're new is discouraging to new members

4) Having a fun-based rather than competition based program for the 1st year tends to keep novices coming back

5) Drivers see completing a full season as a novice as a "rite of passage" into autocross. People that drove together as novices in the same season get a sort of comradeship with each other that continues on into subsequent seasons. (At least that's part of the goal of the current program IMO)

6) And of course all the original reasons that prompted Dean to come up with the idea 2 years ago: running w/o classes helps lower the pressure for new drivers, having the novices allows us to balance the run groups (granted the process needs to be improved, perhaps with online registration?), a novice program allows new drivers to get instruction more easily, etc.

The ultimate goal of the Novice program is not just to get new members hooked on autocross by making it easier to run, but also to make them into faster and better drivers. I think forcing people into points classes will not only discourage them from coming out at all, but will slow their development time into top-shelf drivers. What we really want from the program is not only drivers that are going to come back season after season, but drivers that will come back and raise the bar and help Reno get to a Nationally competitive region.

So, with regards to the Novice program, I'd really like to get some feedback on the program from those that have run as novices under the program this year and last. Does it really help in the way we were hoping? Would you rather get into competition sooner (not that the novice program precludes you from going to a points class)? Does a season of novice class make you a competitive driver when you move to a points class?

Personally, I lucked out my first season (2003). I ran in STX with a bunch of other n00bs, so in a way we had our own Novice season. My second season, Dean joined STX and cleaned our clocks. If I had run STX against Dean my 1st season, I certainly wouldn't have had so much fun if I were perpetually running for second, 3 and 4 seconds behind Dean, and I may have just given up on it thinking I simply wasn't very good. Being successful and having similarly experienced drivers in my 1st season made all the difference in making me come back for more, which in turn is the primary reason I got better and better at autocross.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

Kevin, Novice already has that rule. What many of the long term members are pushing for is to give a Novice say 4 events before they must move to a points class. I think they feel like the novice program is reducing the competition in the points classes because we have all these people essentially out there running no-points for a whole season.

I agree completely. My feelings about the Novice program is that it ain't broke, so people should stop trying to fix it. The only improvement I see is creating a real Novice Chief position for the season, and giving that person (yes, I'm looking at you Dean) responsibility for guiding the n00bs to being knowledgeable autocrossers, in terms of skills, awareness of how the events work, limited advice on modding and classing, etc. In other words, formalize the education that most of us here got because we have been affiliated with SECCS and provide it for people who found their own way to an event. There's an awful lot to learn to be a part of an event that runs smoothly and still have fun, and the Novice program needs to emphasise the things you need to know before you try to become competitive. Deciding to make the effort to be fast and go for wins is something each driver should do on his or her own IMO. I feel like putting such a small cap on Novice events is kind of like saying "well, you can only come out because it's fun 4 times, after that you better be here to win." We're basically telling everyone who doesn't have the intention of being a National level driver that they don't belong here, and that's the exact opposite of what brought me to Reno events in the first place.

[MPREZIV]

I say don't F with the Novice class, as it is. You asked for personal opinions, and I can tell you that being able to spend an entire season in N allowed me to come whatever part of the day I wanted, and not worry about points/classes/schedules/shit. Come, run, have fun, and don't worry about all that crap while you're still likely in the "is this a sport I want to get serious about" phase.

After running a full season of "no worries" I can say I DEFINITELY feel that I was WAY more ready to actually compete in class this year, confidence wise, and skill wise.

You're completely right in that a bunch of newbies shoved into classes will not really mean "competition" so much as just numbers.

[cody]

I think Scott and Kevin make really good points. I liked the Novice program. I especially liked the freedom to choose when to join a "real" class. The Novice Chief idea sounds awesome.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

The Novice Chief idea sounds awesome.

Yeah, and I think you'd do well at it too.

[zpeed]

I just come out and play 2-3 times a year. So should I run no point or novice. I don't care about point or class just want to run that all.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by zpeed

I just come out and play 2-3 times a year. So should I run no point or novice. I don't care about point or class just want to run that all.

Well, if you basically know what you're doing and you just want the seat time, RNP is fine. The function of the Novice class (as most of us see it) is to help people who are new, want some instruction, or just don't really have anyone to ask questions. Either way you can run when you want.

[JonnydaJibba]

I can't add much, but as a person who tries to race as much as possible but can't always make it, requiring me to be in a class (SM) would be pointless in my case. Of course it wouldn't be such a big deal if I could find a stock hood within reasonable distance. But I've been looking pretty much since I bought my car and I have yet to find one close. I guess it's a mostly moot point though because it's such a specific instance.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Nick Koan

Yeah, and I think you'd do well at it too.

Maybe in a year or two, but I'm still a n00b.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

Maybe in a year or two, but I'm still a n00b.

Just ask yourself what Dean would do, and you'll be fine.

[tysonK]

sell the evo.

I'mgoonabuyacamaro.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by cody

The timing chief idea sounds awesome

I agree with Nick!

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I agree with Nick!

Me too!

[cody]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Me too!

Hey Asshole, it was your idea.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

Hey Asshole, it was your idea.

You missed a fix.

[cody]

Apparently I'm still missing it.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by MPREZIV

I say don't F with the Novice class, as it is. You asked for personal opinions, and I can tell you that being able to spend an entire season in N allowed me to come whatever part of the day I wanted, and not worry about points/classes/schedules/shit. Come, run, have fun, and don't worry about all that crap while you're still likely in the "is this a sport I want to get serious about" phase.

After running a full season of "no worries" I can say I DEFINITELY feel that I was WAY more ready to actually compete in class this year, confidence wise, and skill wise.

You're completely right in that a bunch of newbies shoved into classes will not really mean "competition" so much as just numbers.

I agree with Cory. Having run in Novice the entire time in my first year definitely helped me out. Having the choice of running in the morning or afternoon was key for me and made it possible to come to most of the events. Also nice to get pointers and advice from everyone out there, with ride alongs and what not. It would have been a bit frustrating jumping right into SM and getting smacked around (something to look forward to next year )

[dknv]

Novice Class:
I also support letting drivers run as novices in their first season if they choose. I'm not sure about a year-end novice 'champion' award though, as we have it today (participation for the most part, along with quick studies who are driving fast cars). I think there would be good stimulation to recognize when novices are getting better, but don't have any concrete ideas towards that end right now. Rachel was glad she ran as a novice this year (even though some parts of her driving profile doesn't fit a new person, i.e. she's already driving a autox-classed & prepped car). She said that it allowed her to get exposed to it before having to compete with more experienced people. Also, she got extra help from others (Mark, Dean, John and Patty, etc.) to ride with her, and give her feedback, which I'd like to see more novices take advantage of.

[dknv]

...Help Reno get to be a nationally competitive region:
I don't really think our membership wants that. If we did, we would support (vote for) hosting a divisional event; we would run national classes (without the street tire pax); we would support and encourage attendence at other national events; we would limit our 'best scored run' to the first three; etc etc etc. I think the Pro Class idea was a good one towards growing more nationally competitive drivers, but why were there only 3 or 4 participants in it all year? (I would have run in Pro myself, except for wanting to coach Rachel this year. Maybe there are other 'excuses' out there as well.)

In my opinion, this region wants to autox at the least amount of cost. As one example, Don Smith wrote the street tire newsletter article which I can certainly appreciate - street tires are alot less expensive than race tires. However, for those who want to compete in class under national-level rules, adding in other variables such as street tire pax or high altitude pax, passengering and seeing the course more than some of your competitors, and other convenience rules, does not encourage national competitiveness.

[Double Phister]

Being a super n00b that has never even been to an event I would say that it is great that there is a place that let's other n00bs get their feet wet with as little stress as possible.

Part of the reason that I don't compete is that I don't know the way things work or the etiquette. The other reason is that I've mod'ed my car into a non-competetive class.

[tangent]
Is there some sort of online 'this is what to expect' resource? a video version would be better due my laziness.
[/tangent]

Cliffs-Noob class sounds like a good idea.

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by R4NDOM AX3

The other reason is that I've mod'ed my car into a non-competetive class.

You're telling me! Although, as has been said before here, NONE of the cars in our region are really SM competitive, from a "national level" standpoint. My car is WAY behind, power wise, the norm for the SM cars in our area, but I can tell you for sure, it's still TONS of fun!

Even being "out-classed" it's well worth at least going out and seeing what it's all about, and that's exactly what the Novice class is for!