The 2011 Autocross thread

[Kevin M]

I thought Debbie would get here first but looks like I beat her.

Here's the 2011 PAX factors: http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2011.html

Looks like HS got a nice bump, I'd definitely stay if I wasn't looking forward to driving the wagon so much. I'm going over to the "PAX is for chumps, it's all about raw time" camp next season.

[rory_a]

Forgive my flagrant newbness, but does the index get added or subtracted from the raw time? Reason I ask is:

ES 0.825
ESP 0.846
STX 0.824

I think these are all WRX classing. From my understanding, the time is theoretically increased by the above amounts, therefore they expect a bonestock WRX to run faster than an STX prepped car?

Looks like I'll be needing to find a cat, clutch, flywheel before my N wears off.





Nevermind, found it:

The index is multiplied against your run time to provide the time you would have had if you had been in an A-Modified car.



So yeah, still looks like I need to find a cat, clutch and flywheel.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

I'm going over to the "PAX is for chumps, it's all about raw time" camp next season.

Welcome!

[Kevin M]

Rory, you can run catless in ESP, which is where I'd recommend going if you aren't staying stock. A lightweight flywheel is a great mod, and I'd recommend a stage 1 or 2 clutch, stock clutches don't last long in newer, stage2 WRXs. The rule set is better overall and you'll have good competition most of the time. Also when Cody shows up.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by rory_a

Forgive my flagrant newbness, but does the index get added or subtracted from the raw time? Reason I ask is:

ES 0.825
ESP 0.846
STX 0.824

I think these are all WRX classing. From my understanding, the time is theoretically increased by the above amounts, therefore they expect a bonestock WRX to run faster than an STX prepped car?

Looks like I'll be needing to find a cat, clutch, flywheel before my N wears off.





Nevermind, found it:

The index is multiplied against your run time to provide the time you would have had if you had been in an A-Modified car.



So yeah, still looks like I need to find a cat, clutch and flywheel.

Street Touring might appear to be the best place on that list PAX wise, but a Street Prepared subaru would be much more fun to own and drive. This is just my personal opinion, but I think you should compromise the class, rather than compromising the car.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

I thought Debbie would get here first but looks like I beat her.

AS and HS got nice bumps; (too bad Don's yellow RX-7 is gone).

I thought the WRX was in DS?

[rory_a]

You're right,

DS = WRX, FXT, IGT

ESP = WRX, FXT, IGT


My numbers for the PAX index for stock were wrong because I didn't bother looking at Appendix A, simply removed the "P" from ESP (which I know my car would currently be).



And a main reason for looking at STX was to AVOID running with Cody

[Kevin M]

Trust me on this Rory- running with great competition, especially with someone in a similar car, is the best thing you can do early in your competitive driving career.

[k-dogg39]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Trust me on this Rory- running with great competition, especially with someone in a similar car, is the best thing you can do early in your competitive driving career.

[WRXlerate]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Trust me on this Rory- running with great competition, especially with someone in a similar car, is the best thing you can do early in your competitive driving career.

THIS^^^

It's like learning to snowboard, when you go with someone better than you, it makes you try harder and become better much quicker than just going on your own...thought I would try to equate it to something you can better relate to
Plus it makes it so much more fun having good competition, if you just plain get your doors blown off or blow everyone else's doors off every event I think it would get boring.

[cody]

I almost always give rides on my first two runs. Getting a ride is a great way to learn, both the course and what you could be doing better. I remember getting a ride with Nick Hansen one day and he went faster through a Chicago Box than I knew was possible by yanking on the steering wheel more than I had thought you should, based on the "slow hands, fast car" mantra I had been told. There are exceptions to almost every rule. Learning those exceptions is as important as learning the rules.

[Libila]

I'm interested in seeing how well received the rallyx events are. I interviewed RFR's GM last semester and we talked about a rallyx expansion at length. I'm glad to see they're trying it out.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Libila

I'm interested in seeing how well received the rallyx events are. I interviewed RFR's GM last semester and we talked about a rallyx expansion at length. I'm glad to see they're trying it out.

I'm betting when the club car breaks halfway through the day and half the people at the event don't get to run, the program won't do very well.

As much as I want rallycross to succeed, it's got the same problem the race program has: not enough local people with cars to run. At least with autocross and PDX you can run your street car with relatively little risk. But how many people have a car they're willing to risk damage to for 10 minutes of racing?

I hope people take a liking to it and go out and build a fleet of cheap little rally cars, but Reno is kinda small to draw a large field.

Here's to hoping the club VW lasts and we can draw NNR/CRS cars to the event and get some local people hooked on the format. If I had room to park another car at my house, I might consider trying to find a MkI GTi or maybe a Justy or something to rally. But I've got too many cars and not enough money for that right now.

[Libila]

RFR's GM (his name is escaping me at the moment) voiced the same concern, consistent turn out. I told him I'd read about some of the Northern California rallyx venues closing down. Hopefully those guys are willing to make the drive out here to give that program some momentum.

[rory_a]

Originally Posted by sperry

Here's to hoping the club VW lasts and .....

Whatcha got, whatcha need?

Air or water?

[A1337STI]

Originally Posted by sperry

At least with autocross and PDX you can run your street car with relatively little risk. But how many people have a car they're willing to risk damage to for 10 minutes of racing?

That's usually the perception from people out side of the sport. Having been to 60+ autocrosses and 30+ rally crosses. I've done more damage to my STI @ PDX than i have at rally cross. I bet there's more $$$ of damage per driver at a PDX then at a rally cross.

cody had a high speed off at a PDX that Easily could have been a roll over with a car total. maybe you forgot

But hey go ahead thinking that , go ahead telling everyone one that, but don't wonder when turn out suffers. lol

Maybe you should compete in a rally cross sometime, or even watch videos of them?



People can and have crashed or rolled cars at auto cross, and its happened at rally cross.

Even though i disagree with your perception, .. A large % of the reno SCCA member agree with you, and for that reason yes it might fail.

My GF and I just Rally crossed my sti last weekend, she did great (and beat over 1/2 the guys) we are looking forward to the local events here, and i bet at least 10 others from sacramento come up .. we did lose a fender liner though.

the club VW ... could be in trouble though .. Lots of novice (to dirt) drivers , and everyone with the "well its not my car" syndrome ...

[Kevin M]

Paint suffers at rallycross, and that's basically what Scott's referring to. Most people with nice cars care about that sort of thing.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

That's usually the perception from people out side of the sport. Having been to 60+ autocrosses and 30+ rally crosses. I've done more damage to my STI @ PDX than i have at rally cross. I bet there's more $$$ of damage per driver at a PDX then at a rally cross.

cody had a high speed off at a PDX that Easily could have been a roll over with a car total. maybe you forgot

But hey go ahead thinking that , go ahead telling everyone one that, but don't wonder when turn out suffers. lol

Maybe you should compete in a rally cross sometime, or even watch videos of them?



People can and have crashed or rolled cars at auto cross, and its happened at rally cross.

Even though i disagree with your perception, .. A large % of the reno SCCA member agree with you, and for that reason yes it might fail.

My GF and I just Rally crossed my sti last weekend, she did great (and beat over 1/2 the guys) we are looking forward to the local events here, and i bet at least 10 others from sacramento come up .. we did lose a fender liner though.

the club VW ... could be in trouble though .. Lots of novice (to dirt) drivers , and everyone with the "well its not my car" syndrome ...

I did more damage to my WRX just driving down a dirt road at 15 mph that the sum total of my hours driving at PDXs.

And I guarantee there are more rollovers at rallycross than autocross. In the 7 years since I started autocrossing in Reno, I've seen a single rollover. Yet back when I was originally trying to start a rallycross program here in Reno, I was warned multiple times from those in the know about how easy they occur without tons of careful planning in course design. I'd say you're at much higher risk of a writing off a car in the dirt than on the pavement.

But none of that was my point. My point, which Kevin noted, is just that people don't want to go un-pretty up their daily drivers in the dirt. The cost of repainting a car is so much more expensive than the cost of brake pads and tires. I guarantee the average cost of PDX damage is far less than the average cost of rallycross damage... you just don't think so because you don't consider showering the side of your car with gravel "damage". So while you don't care if you beat the snot out of your $30k STi, the vast majority of people do. Not to mention, the vast majority of people interested in local level motorsports don't even have a car that would survive rallycross. Can you rallycross a Vette? Yeah, I guess you could, but I don't expect to see one out there.

It's simple: rallycross is not as popular as autocross simply because it's not as accessible to new drivers. You have to have a dedicated car, or be willing to hammer on your daily driver in a way that even the harshest n00b autocrossing/PDXing probably won't. So, I'm not trying to shit on rallycross. I'm just trying to be a realist when it comes to expanding programs in Reno. Just like our race program seems to suffer from false starts, I expect to see rallycross suffer from false starts, and basically for the same reasons.

It's just bad form to start a new program that has to cannibalize funds/equipment from the autocross program in order to operate a new program that's possibly doomed to failure in a down economy. Hell, it was wrong when we did that to start the race/trials program and that was when we were flush with cash! We're super lucky to have such a good autocross program in Reno considering just how small the motorsports community really is here. I'd hate to see anything hurt that, which is why we should all be careful and realistic about the rallycross program. It's also why the club is attempting to use a club-car to spark interest... get people hooked, and they'll go out and buy/build those rally beaters. I just hope that little club-car can put up a good fight against having to make 100 runs a day with n00b drivers behind the wheel that don't necessarily care about saving the car for the next guy running.

So, don't get all panties-bunched because I'm pointing out the emperor has no clothes. Not everything negative said about rallycross is a personal attack on you.

[Kevin M]

For the record, the one rollover that ever happened at Stead was essentially done on purpose.

[A1337STI]

You wrote PDX is safer and easier on cars than rally cross.

You're wrong.

really end of story. i can dig up stats, or Insurance costs to put on events, but you won't change your opinion or what you post. so there's no point. but here's a few examples for others to benefit from : one , two, and three

that last one is my favorite because it really applies here. He was autocrossing for a few years, decided to try a Track day, made a mistake and had bad luck (but on a race track @ high speeds) and totaled his car.

There was a recent roll over at a rally cross this year. again he made a mistake and had bad luck No Injuries, and a broken head light, broken rally lights, bent up fenders, broken hood scoop. car drives perfectly fine, a much better situation than any of those 3 "track accidents".


Autocross is easier on cars then rally cross, But its more dangerous for the course workers. (speeds are higher)
but yes you are more likely to roll your car in a rally cross compared to autocross, I've never said otherwise.

bottom Line racing your car increases your chances of breaking it. I wouldn't take a car to the race track if i couldn't afford to be with out it.
I wouldn't take a car to a rally cross if i couldn't afford a spare tire
I would risk taking my car to an autocross if i couldn't afford anything, but its a risk.



and now back to Autocross chat , in the autocross thread.

------------------------


I got an other offer to sell me some used Hoosiers for way to cheap ($80 a set) but they are like 3 years old and rather worthless if you want to win ... But for the cost savings i'm thinking about it.

[Kevin M]

If you manage not to crash your car, rallycross is harder on it than PDX is. End of story.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

If you manage not to crash your car, rallycross is harder on it than PDX is. End of story.

I have no experience with rallyX yet, but I feel like the PDX's I've done (all at RFR in the heat) were very hard on my motor. Concern regarding high EGT's and other sensor readings becomes a requirement in my mind. Maybe that's just by virtue of a hot environment, but the sustained WOT at a PDX can really push a setup over the edge as I understand it.

PS: I still count my blessings for not flipping my car at my first PDX...

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

PS: I still count my blessings for not flipping my car at my first PDX...

Technically I think you were rallycrossing at that point.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Nick Koan

Technically I think you were rallycrossing at that point.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

You wrote PDX is safer and easier on cars than rally cross.

No, I did not write that. I said "At least with autocross and PDX you can run your street car with relatively little risk. But how many people have a car they're willing to risk damage to for 10 minutes of racing?"

"Safer" has to do almost entirely on the way an event is run, not on the venue or format of the event, and virtually nothing to do with the reason people aren't willing to drive at rallycross events.

How many of those three guys you linked to had instructors in the car during their wrecks? I'll bet 0. How many were already expert/advanced drivers that probably didn't need any instruction. I'm also betting 0. For that matter, how much instruction is offered at the average rallycross event? 'Cause in Reno, every PDX novice is *required* to have an instructor, and an instructor is made available to *every* driver if they want one. PDX is *not* competition, it's instruction. There shouldn't be a single car on track *ever* at a PDX trying to go as fast as they can. Period. That alone makes it fundamentally safer than rallycross.

Originally Posted by A1337STI

You're wrong.

really end of story. i can dig up stats, or Insurance costs to put on events, but you won't change your opinion or what you post. so there's no point. but here's a few examples for others to benefit from : one , two, and three

that last one is my favorite because it really applies here. He was autocrossing for a few years, decided to try a Track day, made a mistake and had bad luck (but on a race track @ high speeds) and totaled his car.

There was a recent roll over at a rally cross this year. again he made a mistake and had bad luck No Injuries, and a broken head light, broken rally lights, bent up fenders, broken hood scoop. car drives perfectly fine, a much better situation than any of those 3 "track accidents".


Autocross is easier on cars then rally cross, But its more dangerous for the course workers. (speeds are higher)
but yes you are more likely to roll your car in a rally cross compared to autocross, I've never said otherwise.

bottom Line racing your car increases your chances of breaking it. I wouldn't take a car to the race track if i couldn't afford to be with out it.
I wouldn't take a car to a rally cross if i couldn't afford a spare tire
I would risk taking my car to an autocross if i couldn't afford anything, but its a risk.



and now back to Autocross chat , in the autocross thread.

------------------------


I got an other offer to sell me some used Hoosiers for way to cheap ($80 a set) but they are like 3 years old and rather worthless if you want to win ... But for the cost savings i'm thinking about it.

WTF does event insurance cost have to do with what we're talking about? Certainly, if someone crashes a car at the track they are at much greater risk of bodily harm than a slow-speed rollover or something at rallycross. That's what insurance is covering... the cost of someone getting hurt, not just the frequency of wrecks, and certainly not the cost of damage to cars, since no one covers that at any off-road event.

What I thought we were talking about is average cost of damage. Here's what you said:

Originally Posted by Alex

I bet there's more $$$ of damage per driver at a PDX then at a rally cross.

So, add up the cost of those three wrecks, and all of the other PDX incidents, then divide by the thousands of drivers running thousands of miles at tracks each year. Now add up the cost of repainting nearly every car that competes in just a single lap of rallycross on a surface that isn't the most baby-soft, light and fluffy dirt, and divide by the relatively few number of people that rallycross. I guarantee there is far, far more damage done to cars on average in the dirt than at the track. And that's precisely the damage that keeps people away from rallycross.

Once again, my point is that for the average joe with a sports car, rallycross is not appealing because they don't want to hurt their car. Remember, average joe isn't really worried about totaling his ride, as that's pretty unlikely at either event. He's worried about bottoming the car out, bending a wheel, scratching the paint, etc. Those things hardly ever occur at the track, but you're basically guaranteed to get some cosmetic damage at a rallycross.

I know you think I hate rallycross for some reason (despite the fact that MattR and I were the first people in Reno to attempt to start a rallycross program with the SCCA back in 2003), and that taints your ability to read what I'm actually posting instead of what you think I'm posting. But regardless of how you think I feel about rallycross, the reality is that the vast majority of driving enthusiasts are very vain when it comes to their cars, and that alone puts rallycross just off the map for them.