2005 PAX factors

[MattR]

I think the problem is that the cars are all bunched together in A, B, C stock, then a few cars here and there in remaining classes, they need to spread out ABCDE stock a bit more, and allow for the different stock trim cars to fit into like "classes".

STi is a class killer in ESP, but I don;t think it does so well in plain old SM, in TSM it gains a lot.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

STi is a class killer in ESP

I'm not convinced, and neither is the SEB. Show me the data to back this up...

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

I'm not convinced, and neither is the SEB. Show me the data to back this up...

Well, it's my assumption based on street tire. Not Race tire class, so that really doesnt mean the same. I think the added traction the AWD provides over a Street Tire 2WD ESP car is substantial.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

A well prepared SP Muscle car should be competitive with an SP STI. Last year's nationals prove it...

Hah. If SP STi's & EVO's weren't keeping up with the ponycars at Nationals then the import drivers simply aren't good enough, or they haven't developed their cars enough. The imports are lighter, smaller, have better suspension types & geometry, usually better brakes, I would guess a stiffer chassis (because you'd have to try pretty hard to make a chassis more flexible than the Mustang), and the same amount if not more power.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Hah. If SP STi's & EVO's weren't keeping up with the ponycars at Nationals then the import drivers simply aren't good enough, or they haven't developed their cars enough. The imports are lighter, smaller, have better suspension types & geometry, usually better brakes, I would guess a stiffer chassis (because you'd have to try pretty hard to make a chassis more flexible than the Mustang), and the same amount if not more power.

Let's compare the '04 STi w/ the '05 Mustang GT along the lines of things you can't modify in ESP:

STi:
4-pot 12.7" Brembo front brakes
2-pot 12.3" Brembo rear brakes
3263lb curb weight
300hp@6000rpm
300ft@4000rpm
6spd with transmission cooler, full time awd
- front SureTrac limited slip
- rear mechanical limited slip
- center DCCD driver controlled differential

2005 Mustang GT:
12.4" 2-pot sliding caliper front brakes
11.8" 1-pot sliding caliper rear brakes
3560lbs curb weight
300hp@5750rpm
320ft@4500rpm
5-speed transmission
- rear LSD on live axle
- optional traction control

My money's on the STi.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I've flogged an 05GT around town here, and my money would be on the STi as well.

[Dean]

Opinions are like, well you know...

If Rally cars were such class killers, I would expect to see more of them in winning possitions. And when they do, it appears the Evo is quicker. Perhaps when they get more development time on them, they will be, but I just don't see the data supporting it right now.


This is Data:
04 Nationals, Topeka: 11 Trophy positions of 38 entries.
1 Sam Strano 01 Chevrolet Camaro 97.206
2 Mark Jorgensen 98 Ford Mustang Cobra 97.296
3 Jason Tipple 04 Mistubishi Evo VIII 98.241
4 Steve Eguina 96 Chev. Camaro Ss-R 98.250
5 Eric Stemler 03 Mitsubishi Evolution 98.462
6 John Tak 04 Mitsubishi Evo 98.491
7 Michael Snyder 02 Chevy Camaro 98.991
8 Navid Kahangi 03 Mitsubishi Evo VIII 99.228
9 Henry Botkin 02 Chevy Z28 Black 99.246
10 Chris Hartman 04 Subaru Impreza STi 99.513
11 Kiko Seibt 04 Subaru WRX STi 99.519

05 Natioonal Tour:
El Paso 3 trophies, 8 competitors, First Rally car 5th
1 95 Pontiac Firebird Brian Weikert 117.983
2 95 Pontiac Formula Larry Petrucci 119.014
3 98 Chevy Camaro Richard Rippy 125.098
Only Rally car:
5 04 Mitsubishi EVO Robert Love 125.998

SanDiego: 3 trophies, 7 competitors, no STIs, Evos do well
1 05 Mitsubishi Evolution R Navid Kahangi 98.093
2 02 Chevrolet Camaro 99.665
3 03 Mitsubishi Evo VIII 99.807

Walnut Ridge: 4 trophies, 11 competitors
1 01 Chevrolet Camaro Sam Strano 89.785
2 98 Ford Mustang Cobra Mark Jorgensen 90.513
3 04 Subaru Impreza WRX Jeff Templeton 92.927 (I assume this is an STI)
4 Subaru WRX James Elterman 93.155 (I assume this is an STI)

Houston: 2 trophies, 6 competitors No Rally Cars
1 88 Pontiac Trans-Am Mark Madarash 100.870
2 00 Pontiac Trans AM Matthew Patterson 107.045

Atlanta: 2 trophies, 4 competitors All Rally cars, no muscle cars. Very interesting, but very small run group for a tour event.
1 Subaru WRX Joel Adam Fehrman 83.359
2 05 Subaru Impreza STi Tom Pulliam 84.058

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

If SP STi's & EVO's weren't keeping up with the ponycars at Nationals then the import drivers simply aren't good enough, or they haven't developed their cars enough.

Dean, you're making me quote myself here.

The STi has been around for what, a year or two? The Camaro and Mustang platforms have been around, essentially unchanged, since 1993 for the Camaros and 1979 for the Mustangs. People have been auto-xing them in ESP ever since they came out, and know how to develop them to the edge of the SP rules. Give it another year or two, and the STi guys will be all over that class.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Dean, you're making me quote myself here.

The STi has been around for what, a year or two? The Camaro and Mustang platforms have been around, essentially unchanged, since 1993 for the Camaros and 1979 for the Mustangs. People have been auto-xing them in ESP ever since they came out, and know how to develop them to the edge of the SP rules. Give it another year or two, and the STi guys will be all over that class.

Quoted for troof.

[MattR]

Troof!!

[Dean]

You are all right, and the SEB and I are wrong... [Shakes Head]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather drive an STI than a pony car, but I just don't believe they are as unevenly matched in SP trim as y'a'll do.

Also, as Matt mentioned, AWD + street tires is a significant help, but RWD + Hoosiers doesn't loose much if anything to AWD and Hoosiers. There mere fact you can wedge a set of 275s, or 315s under the fenders of a pony car without blowing up bearings, axles, and can still stear is a good enough starter for me.

I think we agree to disagree on this one.

[MattR]

Sweet, I said something constructive!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

Sweet, I said something constructive!

I'm sure you will make up for it soon enough...

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

You are all right, and the SEB and I are wrong... [Shakes Head]

Wouldn't be the first time the SEB was wrong about something.