2009 WRX

[cody]

Yah, I'd be pretty pissed if I had had some lapse in sanity and bought an 08...

What sort of changes are in store for the 09 STi?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Yah, I'd be pretty pissed if I had had some lapse in sanity and bought an 08...

What sort of changes are in store for the 09 STi?

Probably nothing. It's not like the '09 EVO is going to shame it in power like the Rallispec Lancer did to the '08 WRX forcing them to slap the STi turbo on the '09 WRX.

[Dewey]

Sounds bad ass, I still cant get past the body style of the sedans... look worse than the new Corollas.

[Dean]

Since they went to the 2.5l on the WRX, I have wondered how they would continue to differentiate the models.

It is now as if a $1200 turbo and maybe $600 injectors give you almost the same power plant. If you want the extra 6th gear, you can get that too... This the same problem Audi has been battling in the A vs. S model lines. They have mostly succeeded by having significantly different engine configurations and finishing levels. Subaru has lost the engine differentiator and never had the trim levels as one.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Since they went to the 2.5l on the WRX, I have wondered how they would continue to differentiate the models.

It is now as if a $1200 turbo and maybe $600 injectors give you almost the same power plant. If you want the extra 6th gear, you can get that too... This the same problem Audi has been battling in the A vs. S model lines. They have mostly succeeded by having significantly different engine configurations and finishing levels. Subaru has lost the engine differentiator and never had the trim levels as one.

What?

STi has a much better/different transmission
Si-Drive ECU
Dual AVCS heads
MASSIVE fender flares
Much better suspension
Upgraded interior
HIDs
Massive brakes
Better exhaust

The difference between the WRX and the STi has never been bigger than in the current line up. They don't even share the same body anymore!

[Dean]

35HP = the same to the average idiot is my point.

Except for the Limited, the STI trim levels suck and only slightly exceed those of the rest of the Impreza line if at all.

Headlights, brakes and fender flares do not sell a car! I'd bet they are diluting their STI sales by bumping the WRX configuration is all I am saying.

[BOO]

Originally Posted by Dean

35HP = the same to the average idiot is my point.

Except for the Limited, the STI trim levels suck and only slightly exceed those of the rest of the Impreza line if at all.

Headlights, brakes and fender flares do not sell a car! I'd bet they are diluting their STI sales by bumping the WRX configuration is all I am saying.

Interesting, but what does that say about the STI Leg/Forester? (Of course if they were ever brought over)

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

35HP = the same to the average idiot is my point.

Except for the Limited, the STI trim levels suck and only slightly exceed those of the rest of the Impreza line if at all.

Headlights, brakes and fender flares do not sell a car! I'd bet they are diluting their STI sales by bumping the WRX configuration is all I am saying.

First, the STi makes 40hp more than the '09 WRX. 305hp vs. 265hp.

Second, if 35hp is "nothing" to the average consumer, then why did they bother to add 35hp to the WRX? 230hp up to 265hp.

Third, what STi trim levels? The STi is an STi. You can get different wheels and/or navigation. There are no trim levels. It's a halo car, it's got no real options. You buy it because it's significantly better in every way over the WRX, and you pay out the ass for it.

Fourth, headlights, brakes and fender flares do sell the car, when they've got that STi badge on it. I don't think Subaru cares in the least about diluting their STi sales if it means selling twice as many WRXs. That's the point... people are supposed to come into the showroom to see the STi, then leave in their new WRX. As long as the WRX is good enough to fend off the Ralliart Lancers and Mazdaspeed3s of the world, not selling a lot of STis is not a big deal.

And to be honest, I hope the STi stays expensive and doesn't sell a lot. I like it being a bit more rare than the WRX. For a while, it seemed like there were more STis than WRXs around. The STi shouldn't be the base model! And like I said, the differences between the WRX and STi have never been more pronounced. The brakes and fender flares you mentioned alone are potentially worth the difference. The STi with Brembos and 305 tires is going to whoop ass on a WRX even if it had 305hp.

I think the new WRX is once again a great bang-for-the-buck car... probably even better than the '04-'07 STi was. But that doesn't take away from the new STi. It's still the king of the hill in terms of performance... but now you just have to pay a bit more for the badge. Which sucks, but you can't say the car hasn't earned halo status for Subaru.

[Dean]

I am not going to quibble over 5HP, especially when we don't have '09 STI HP numbers, do we?

The performance differences are shrinking and the price difference is not or is growing = diluting effect on STI sales.

By trim, I mean finish/interior, etc... STI trim levels are not "premium" by any stretch of the imagination and yet the price is = Diluting.

This was my point...

New and associated point...

The STI should be available in a R = Race version, and an L = Limited version.

The R should make about 1/3 more power than the WRX and weigh less with all the brakes and other performance parts.

The L should be the same, but has all the luxury that a $35-40K car should have and can weigh the same or maybe a bit more than the WRX.

That would make the STI a truly differentiated car and would minimize the dilution.

[100_Percent_Juice]

So you wish they had a WRX STiL and a WRX STiR? I just don't see why you guys are talking this to death.

[sybir]

No, Dean wishes Subaru would make an Audi. And, apparently, it should have the same interior refinements but be able to completely destroy a German luxury car at the same price point. I've got news for you. That makes zero fiscal sense. Build a 40k luxury competitor, and people are going to buy the BMW or Audi because they care about the name more than the car. Make a luxury car perform like an M3 (or even a 335), and the price goes up; why do you think ther'e sa such a huge gap between a base 3 series and the 335/M3? Motors and transmissions and different bodywork cost money. Where is Subaru supposed to pull $10k in interior refinement from? I'd rather they put it in the drivetrain, and, shock, horror, that's exactly what they've done.

I say, go buy a damn Audi. A Subaru is not a luxury car, and it never will be, so I've never had that expectation. An Exige isn't a luxury car and it runs $50k+, does that mean it needs a thoroughly soundproofed, softened down version? No. Lotus will sell you carpet and power windows if you need it, but they're fine at the price point they're at. You want a more refined, softer car, buy a Spec B.

[Dean]

Carrie's Limited is fine as far as refinement... It is about the equivalent of my A series Audi, better in some, lacking in others, but about right.

I should not need to buy an Audi or a Legacy to get heated leather seats, etc...

And if you can't make at least 25-30+% more power in a power train option, why does it need to exist unless it is an alternate fuel or hybrid system?

Maybe the STI should become an entirely different car, just as the Supra did oh so many years ago.

Trying to differentiate 3 levels of the same base platform is just difficult and often confusing to consumers and it affects your ability to have pricing control. Just naming it something different often is enough to differentiate it in the buyer's mind even if it is the same platform. Look at the Outbacks as a perfect example.

I know you and probably everyone reading this can differentiate the drive train, but that doesn't mean we don't want heated seats in a bloody AWD perfect for the winter sports car which the Exige is none of...

[A1337STI]

I agree with the Jist of what Dean is saying. The main specs an average joe looks at are getting closer

Hatch or Sedan/ Hatch
17" rim vs 17" rim (18 optional)
265 HP vs 300 (305)
5 Sp Vs 6 Spd

They should make it stand out a lot for the average joe. I want to see a 2 Door, 350 ish hp / tq. that looks like the sedan. if subaru wants to make a 104" wheel base Hatch for their WRC team, they don't have to sell their 1000 units in the usa. give us a cool 2 Door sedan (i'll take the longer wheel base that the wrc team wants though )

the other details Sperry mentioned do make the STI a better car for sure, esp for a hard core subie fan. and i do like having them be rare, but i'm bias cause i own one. Course since they are rare spare parts aren't going to be cheap..

guess actually thinking about it, i'de rather have it be their best selling model. there would be lots of pick and pull STIs intact, with parts.

any who for a specialized rally fan ...
I think the 17" rims on the new REX are lame! hurts your Rally cross tires choicess,

and If you can't fit 15" rims over the brakes, then you will be forced to do a brake swap for rally tires, which means you can't run in GT / PGT with in Nasa, CRS, and Rally America Straight to open.
doesn't subaru want new cars in those classes?

I really like how STIs are forced into open due to brakes, but WRX's are not... Though rally certainly doesn't drive their sales in the usa. (Sadly)

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Carrie's Limited is fine as far as refinement... It is about the equivalent of my A series Audi, better in some, lacking in others, but about right.

I should not need to buy an Audi or a Legacy to get heated leather seats, etc...

And if you can't make at least 25-30+% more power in a power train option, why does it need to exist unless it is an alternate fuel or hybrid system?

Maybe the STI should become an entirely different car, just as the Supra did oh so many years ago.

Trying to differentiate 3 levels of the same base platform is just difficult and often confusing to consumers and it affects your ability to have pricing control. Just naming it something different often is enough to differentiate it in the buyer's mind even if it is the same platform. Look at the Outbacks as a perfect example.

I know you and probably everyone reading this can differentiate the drive train, but that doesn't mean we don't want heated seats in a bloody AWD perfect for the winter sports car which the Exige is none of...

http://www.heatedseatkits.com/



The STi is supposed to be a street legal rally car. It's not supposed to have luxury past the bare necessities. It shouldn't even have A/C, and they should take the stereo back out and replace it with a gauge cluster.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

I agree with the Jist of what Dean is saying. The main specs an average joe looks at are getting closer

Hatch or Sedan/ Hatch
17" rim vs 17" rim (18 optional)
265 HP vs 300 (305)
5 Sp Vs 6 Spd

They should make it stand out a lot for the average joe. I want to see a 2 Door, 350 ish hp / tq. that looks like the sedan. if subaru wants to make a 104" wheel base Hatch for their WRC team, they don't have to sell their 1000 units in the usa. give us a cool 2 Door sedan (i'll take the longer wheel base that the wrc team wants though )

the other details Sperry mentioned do make the STI a better car for sure, esp for a hard core subie fan. and i do like having them be rare, but i'm bias cause i own one. Course since they are rare spare parts aren't going to be cheap..

guess actually thinking about it, i'de rather have it be their best selling model. there would be lots of pick and pull STIs intact, with parts.

any who for a specialized rally fan ...
I think the 17" rims on the new REX are lame! hurts your Rally cross tires choicess,

and If you can't fit 15" rims over the brakes, then you will be forced to do a brake swap for rally tires, which means you can't run in GT / PGT with in Nasa, CRS, and Rally America Straight to open.
doesn't subaru want new cars in those classes?

I really like how STIs are forced into open due to brakes, but WRX's are not... Though rally certainly doesn't drive their sales in the usa. (Sadly)

STi's are on 18's, both the normal and optional BBS wheels. And the average joe can certainly see the difference in sheet metal between the two; namely, the WRX looks like a Corolla, and the STi looks fucking awesome. And *that* is the primary difference that Mr. Avg Joe will notice between the two... not the power, not the brakes, not the 6MT... just the fact that the STi looks sweet and the WRX looks like an econo-box.

As far as the rally stuff... the STi is tailor made for Group N. There's a reason Subaru/FHI/STi makes all this stuff:

http://www.rallispec.com/STi%20Catalog%2007.pdf

And a ton if it is Grp-N homologated specifically for competition use as a "factory" part... like the gravel spec brakes that fit under 15" rally wheels. Your problem isn't that the STi isn't classifiable, it's that you're not running in FIA Grp-N. Move to Europe.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

http://www.heatedseatkits.com/



The STi is supposed to be a street legal rally car. It's not supposed to have luxury past the bare necessities. It shouldn't even have A/C, and they should take the stereo back out and replace it with a gauge cluster.

But it's not. They don't even bother to try and do some of the simple weight savings that Mazda has done on the Miata since year one and now it only has a small power margin over the WRX...

As I said, the R model should be significantly lighter and faster than the WRX... Only the L gets the amenities...

I want a true street legal rally car, not a marginally souped up street car with big brakes and fender flares.

A real front suspension would be a start along with a lighter stiffer chassis with more power...

[sperry]

Okay I finally figured it out. You want a lighter, stiffer, more powerful, STi with double wishbone suspension, heated leather seats, and additional luxury options. With a race ready version from the factory.

Too bad someone already makes that car. It's called a Porsche 911. Go ahead and pick up a Turbo or a GT3-RS... they meet your requirements exactly. I don't think Subaru will be getting into the $150k+ supercar market anytime soon.

[Dean]

Yah, that's what I want...

I'm not even asking for GTR levels, just a little more of the actual rally car on the street car.

And they made an '07 Limited, so clearly they know how...

I guess you are happy with the STI having basically nothing other than body and rear suspension changes over the past 4 years while the WRX has had that plus more power and a couple other things. The flagship car is losing that leadership. If you can't see that, and that they need to do something about it, then go buy an '08 STI...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Yah, that's what I want...

I'm not even asking for GTR levels, just a little more of the actual rally car on the street car.

And they made an '07 Limited, so clearly they know how...

I guess you are happy with the STI having basically nothing other than body and rear suspension changes over the past 4 years while the WRX has had that plus more power and a couple other things. The flagship car is losing that leadership. If you can't see that, and that they need to do something about it, then go buy an '08 STI...

Dude, it's totally what you want, if you go by what you're asking for in the previous posts:

What car has significantly more power than a WRX, a-arm suspension, a turbo boxer motor, leather and luxury gizmos, and a track-ready edition? The 911 is the only car that meets those requirements... and it costs $100k more than an STi. There is no way Subaru can build anything like that without getting into the same price class as cars like the GTR, Z06, and 911... which is a market that they don't have the name to compete in. The STi is already borderline "too expensive"... if they built it the way you want, it would be a $50k+ car easily, and people shopping for fast cars at that price point are looking for something more like a Vette or Porsche... not a souped up econo-car.

What I think you actually want, is an STi as it already is, with 350hp, and optional leather seats. In which case, get an STi, put an AccessPort and exhaust on it, and swap in some heated LGT seats. Or just get a LGT w/ an AccessPort for that matter.

As far as the "flagship losing that leadership"... the only car the STi has lost ground on is the WRX. And that assumes that the '09 STi is coming with the same 305hp... it very well may get a bump as well, but I think it won't because it's already the better car compared to the EVO MR and MS3 that it's actually competing with. Remember, Subaru shouldn't care if they lose STi sales to the WRX... they probably make more money on the WRX anyway.

And, if I had nearly $40k to blow on a new car in this economy, I'd already have an '08 STi.

[Dean]

You are exactly right Scott... You know exactly what I want... I apologize for allowing my own opinions to impact my preferences.

[sybir]

Dean, show me an example of a production car other than a Mustang Cobra where a fundamental change in suspension geometry/design is made (something beyond uprated sways, bolt patterns, struts/shocks and springs)............it doesn't happen because there's no point in fundamentally redeveloping a niche car - you redevelop the base car, which is exactly what we've seen with the multilink suspension on the newer Subarus. Don't try to argue the AWD platforms of some of the homologation cars, either; I don't want to hear about a FWD car with a beam rear end replaced by an independent strut setup and a diff.

What's that? It's a short list? It's a short list for a reason. Car companies are in this to make money, not build loss-leaders.

Scott's not off-base in his assessment of your car "requirements", you're asking for a fundamental redesign of a single model with its roots in an economy car to make it a race car, but you want leather and heated seats.....you're not making any sense. By your definition, all Subaru needs to do is add heated seats to an STi to make it your "luxury car".......but you want a completely different suspension under it? Are you high?

They sell a stripped model in Japan for Group N purposes.......there's no market in the US for that vehicle, and enthusiasts talk big and make up comparatively small sales numbers. Ask Subaru about turbo 5speed Legacy wagons sometime. Enthusiast darlings, right? Bring it and we'll buy it, right? In 2005, they sold 600 in the US.

600.


There's no market for a $50k luxury Subaru. Buy a 335ix.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

You are exactly right Scott... You know exactly what I want... I apologize for allowing my own opinions to impact my preferences.

Feel free to roll your eyes at me, but you're the one saying "I want X, Y, Z" and then tell me I'm wrong for pointing out a car that's exactly "X, Y, and Z".

So forgive me for having to dance around and guess what you really mean when you say you want an STi that's both "more of a street legal rally car" and luxurious like an Audi, which are mutually exclusive. The STi already is too stiff and raw for the market that shops for more luxurious cars, with the exception of people that are shopping for cars like the GTR and 911 that would scoff at the idea of buying an Impreza.

Or I guess your opinion is that Subaru should build a 911 Turbo killer and sell it for $40k? I'm all for pulling that off, but I'm under no misconception that there's even the slightest possibility that it's possible.

[Dean]

I was very clear in my requests, and you have a strange definition of mutually exclusive. Suspension and power have nothing to do with interior comfort & convenience.

Are you claiming the 2007 Limited in Matt & Carrie's garage doesn't exist?

Are you also saying Subaru should not continue to innovate and improve their flagship product, but let it languish as they bring the lesser model up to it's level?

Let's see, to lower weight, they could make the trunk and fenders aluminum as they already with the hood... They could trim the chassis like Mazda does with the Miata... Heck, they could use lighter materials and a better design for the front subframe brace as we have previously discussed and maybe reinforce the suspension pickups as you would like. Maybe use lighter materials for the exhaust. I don't think even all those combined would push the price even a couple grand..

And do you honestly believe they couldn't make 325-350HP or so without major changes? A slightly different turbo has basically zero cost delta and a little remaping.

I do not know enough about the Rally car to speak to specific components, but maybe over time, if they have a better front suspension layout for it, it could be incorporated... FMIC??? Sequential tranny?

What is so bloody unreasonable about any of this that it apparently makes the car somehow untenable for Subaru in your opinion? Do you expect the 2014 STI to still have the same power train and basically the same front suspension as the 2004?

If so, the only thing they will be selling is Outbacks to skiers and old ladies like you.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I was very clear in my requests, and you have a strange definition of mutually exclusive. Suspension and power have nothing to do with interior comfort & convenience.

You were clear enough to go as far as suggesting that Subaru fundamentally redesign the suspension on a car that's supposed to be a bolt-on's upgrade over the WRX. And suspension/power have *everything* to do with comfort and convenience when you're talking about actually selling the car. There is no market for a 350-400hp race-ready STi with a luxury interior, because it would cost too much to make and therefore get beat by cars like the 911 that people willing to spend $80k+ would rather have.

Originally Posted by Dean

Are you claiming the 2007 Limited in Matt & Carrie's garage doesn't exist?

Yeah, that's totally what I'm claiming. The '07 Limited was limited for a reason, there's no real market for it. Most the people that want an STi want the big wing, blingy brakes, etc. The Limited was not a souped up, more luxurious STi; it was a sleeper STi with leather seats out of the WRX. Which is great for someone like Carrie, since she's a motorhead with more sensible tastes... which is a rare combination.

Originally Posted by Dean

Are you also saying Subaru should not continue to innovate and improve their flagship product, but let it languish as they bring the lesser model up to it's level?

Who said the STi is "languishing"? My whole point is that the STi doesn't need updating yet explicitly because it's the class leader. The only car that's making up ground on the STi is the WRX... which is good for Subaru, in general. Subaru will probably update the STi in 2010 along with the rest of the lineup changes that are coming. But there's no reason to touch it in '09.

Originally Posted by Dean

Let's see, to lower weight, they could make the trunk and fenders aluminum as they already with the hood... They could trim the chassis like Mazda does with the Miata... Heck, they could use lighter materials and a better design for the front subframe brace as we have previously discussed and maybe reinforce the suspension pickups as you would like. Maybe use lighter materials for the exhaust. I don't think even all those combined would push the price even a couple grand..

And do you honestly believe they couldn't make 325-350HP or so without major changes? A slightly different turbo has basically zero cost delta and a little remaping.

They just finished making the hood steel on the WRX because aluminum is so damn expensive. Adding aluminum to the STi is expensive, especially since now you've got a complete second part to manufacture, whereas the existing rear hatch bolts right on and has already passed all the crash tests.

The front subframe is designed the way it is in order to pass crash safety rules. It could be lighter and stiffer if it were just a simple box steel brace under there, and it would certainly cost a crap ton less to make than the crazy waterformed steel beam in there now... but then they couldn't sell the car in the US.

Again, a lighter exhaust means a more expensive exhaust, since it's a materials issue... or a matter of taking out the cats, which they can't do. Plus it'd be too noisy w/o the resonators and large muffler. You can't sell a car that drones on the highway.

And it's obvious from the AP maps that they could easily bump the power output cheaply, but then they'd pay for it when people who abuse their cars occasionally break them all the time. There's a reason the STi only makes 305hp when we know the block and turbo is capable of closer to 400... warranty overhead.

Originally Posted by Dean

I do not know enough about the Rally car to speak to specific components, but maybe over time, if they have a better front suspension layout for it, it could be incorporated... FMIC??? Sequential tranny?

The suspension is the same design as what's on the car from the factory... it's required by the rules. In fact, the suspension on the road car was design specifically for rally use, we're already reaping those benefits. The WRC car just has beefed up arms, hubs, dampers, etc. It's fundamentally the same. I don't think there's a single WRC car anymore that uses double a-arm suspension... it's not strong enough, and too hard to work on. McStruts are best for rally.

The WRC car doesn't use a FMIC. It uses a V-mount radiator/intercooler setup. Switching to that on the STi would require a fundamental reorganization under the hood. It would reduce a ton of shared parts between the WRX and STi, including requiring a different chassis.

The sequential tranny's cost between $70k and $100k and would be shitty on a street car, unless you like to spin all 4 tires leaving every stop sign. Not to mention most people don't like cruising on the freeway at 6000rpm. But I guess they could spend a ton of money re-engineering the rally gearboxes for street use and lower costs... even though they already did that and came up with the incredibly good 6MT that's already in the car.

Originally Posted by Dean

What is so bloody unreasonable about any of this that it apparently makes the car somehow untenable for Subaru in your opinion? Do you expect the 2014 STI to still have the same power train and basically the same front suspension as the 2004?

If so, the only thing they will be selling is Outbacks to skiers and old ladies like you.

The above is what's "so bloody unreasonable". There's no reason to price the car more and more expensive for features that make it better when there's nothing out there threatening it accept for another Subaru (which is still a vastly inferior car when you get over the hp bump it got, though it's probably a better bang-for-the-buck now).

I expect the 2010 STi to be beefed up a bit in the power department, maybe get some visual stuff changed like the tail-lights perhaps, and yes I expect the suspension to remain fundamentally the same as the suspension on the 1971 GL, since it's seemed to work alright for the last 37 years for rally and street. I don't see any need for crazy lightweight stuff, or a new gearbox... though the Mistu quick-shift semi-auto may force Subaru's hand as the "gadget war" rages on between the Impreza and Lancer, even though the STi 6MT is still the best/strongest gearbox between the two cars.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by sperry

...I expect the 2010 STi to be beefed up a bit in the power department, maybe get some visual stuff changed like the tail-lights perhaps...

If Subaru sticks with it's design choices it's made since 02, we can expect the 10 to be a completely different looking car. I have no reason to believe they would change what they have been doing for the last 8 years, which is completely redesigning the car every 2 years. I certainly hope that this model (08-09) isn't the one they decide they'll keep around for a while. We can see just how much the public likes this car by how "rare" it is. The Evo X has a bigger price tag than it's previous itineration, and I see almost one a day. You can call the STI rare all day, but the truth is most people don't like it. Perhaps this small redesign on the 09 Rex comes from the unpopularity of the 08 STI.

*Pulls out shit-umbrella-ella-ella*