Where to get Motul?

[MikeSTI]

ohh yah any word on some bleeders? who? what? where? when?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

ohh yah any word on some bleeders? who? what? where? when?

Oakos Automotive is the place to go for speed bleeders. And the best time to do them is when you are flushing brakes, obviously.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

ohh yah any word on some bleeders? who? what? where? when?

I got "speedbleeders"... I don't remember where I got 'em from... and I don't know what size the STi Brembos take...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

One case is 10 liter bottles. 1 liter is plenty flush a car, but since it comes in metal cans, it'll last for a long-ass time on the shelf, I'd suggest 2 liters, one blue and one gold (assuming Kevin can get a split case), and you'll be set for you next two changes!

If we can't split a case, should we just get 2? I assume that each of us is goign for 2 cans, which solves the blue/gold dilemma. And it wouldn't be too hard to sell the extra 5 pairs at an autocross for $20.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

I got "speedbleeders"... I don't remember where I got 'em from... and I don't know what size the STi Brembos take...

The Brembos are different, but Oakos has those in stock. That's where Egan got his from, for both of his subarus. 4 pots are different too. And guess where I got mine?

[Dean]

ATE is great stuff, it was all I ran/run in the A4...

The Damn metal cans are to big though. You really need twp people who want to flucsh their systems at the same time to need a full one, and like every other type, they are mostly uselesss after they are open, except as maybe clutch fluid for my F150...

The Stealth and WRX are getting Ford Heavy Duty though since I flush them so often. Very much cheaper than even the ATE. I did really like changing colors though...

Again, if you have a can or bottle of brake fluid that has had the seal broke, for more than a day or so, assume it is junk...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

If we can't split a case, should we just get 2? I assume that each of us is goign for 2 cans, which solves the blue/gold dilemma. And it wouldn't be too hard to sell the extra 5 pairs at an autocross for $20.

No kidding... worst case scenario, I'll just buy all the left over cans and sell 'em to SECCS members in the future... or if you're moving up here Kevin, you can keep 'em in Matt's garage and sell 'em yourself!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Again, if you have a can or bottle of brake fluid that has had the seal broke, for more than a day or so, assume it is junk...

I have to disagree. If you use say, .5L to completely flush your system, and then cap the rest off. You should be okay to use the rest for bleeding the brakes a few times.

Since the older fluid will only be used to top off as you bleed, it won't really be in the lines. I'd guess that you could flush your system, then use the rest for 3 or 4 pre-autoX bleeds w/o drastically reducing the stiffness of the pedal.

Plus that ATE stuff is suppost to be one of the best at resisting water.

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Oakos Automotive is the place to go for speed bleeders. And the best time to do them is when you are flushing brakes, obviously.

Do we have an Oakos Automotive in Reno?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Do we have an Oakos Automotive in Reno?

http://oakos.com
Sti brakes section

[sperry]

Started an "official" group buy thread here:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=20932#20932

[Dean]

Not sure it is best at rejecting moisture, only that it has one of the best wet boiling points, which is quite different.

Also, as you press and release the brake, fluid is mixed, and also, hot fluid in the calipers has some circulation due to convection.

Either way, any moisture you can avoid putting in the system is good.

If you have a a 1l bottle 1/2 full, and you seal the cap when it is say 20% humidity, the brake fluid will absorb close to 100% of that moisture in the empty .5l of the can no matter what brand Dot 3-4 fluid. I think tha is relative humidity, even though they don't say so. So I'm not sure how much water that is, but it is some, and every time you open the bottle, more moisture gets in to be sucked into the fluid...

I won't use an open bottle of fluid for anything but the F150 clutch that has a leaking slave cylinder that is impossible to get to...

If you are going to the trouble to bleed them, why not pump a whole new bottle of Ford HD into the system for I think $4-6

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

http://oakos.com
Sti brakes section

Thanks Kevin!!1 got a set ordered Now get that fluid

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Not sure it is best at rejecting moisture, only that it has one of the best wet boiling points, which is quite different.

Also, as you press and release the brake, fluid is mixed, and also, hot fluid in the calipers has some circulation due to convection.

Either way, any moisture you can avoid putting in the system is good.

If you have a a 1l bottle 1/2 full, and you seal the cap when it is say 20% humidity, the brake fluid will absorb close to 100% of that moisture in the empty .5l of the can no matter what brand Dot 3-4 fluid. I think tha is relative humidity, even though they don't say so. So I'm not sure how much water that is, but it is some, and every time you open the bottle, more moisture gets in to be sucked into the fluid...

I won't use an open bottle of fluid for anything but the F150 clutch that has a leaking slave cylinder that is impossible to get to...

I hear what your saying.

Originally Posted by Dean

If you are going to the trouble to bleed them, why not pump a whole new bottle of Ford HD into the system for I think $4-6

Because you need to do it before and after every AutoX.

[Dean]

[quote="sperry"]

Originally Posted by Dean

Because you need to do it before and after every AutoX.

I don't do it that often. Before track days, even between back to back track days occasoinally, and every couple weeekends of autocross, or because I'm swapping pads...

Like I said, ATE is great stuff, and I'm not discouraging anyone from buying it. I am only making a reccomendation that you do two cars at once, so you mostly kill a bottle because it only has questionable usefulness once it is open.

IMHO you can't boil fluid at an autocross, even with 7 runs and morning and afternoon run groups. There just isn't enough delta V to generate the heat required. Even at HPDE type events it is tough. It is far more likely in both cases to have brake fade due to pad material overheating, residue deposit on the rotors, glazed rotors or air in the system IMHO.

Scott, lets shoot your infrared pyrometer at the back side of some calipers at the nesxt autocross and see...

Also, A freind helping is better than speedbleeders any day as they rely on a less than perfect seal between bleader and caliper to prevent air during recoil... Every time you use them, that seal gets worse and worse, increasing the likelyhood of air entering the system which is 10 times worse than water...

[sperry]

[quote="Dean"]

Originally Posted by sperry

I don't do it that often. Before track days, even between back to back track days occasoinally, and every couple weeekends of autocross, or because I'm swapping pads...

Like I said, ATE is great stuff, and I'm not discouraging anyone from buying it. I am only making a reccomendation that you do two cars at once, so you mostly kill a bottle because it only has questionable usefulness once it is open.

IMHO you can't boil fluid at an autocross, even with 7 runs and morning and afternoon run groups. There just isn't enough delta V to generate the heat required. Even at HPDE type events it is tough. It is far more likely in both cases to have brake fade due to pad material overheating, residue deposit on the rotors, glazed rotors or air in the system IMHO.

Scott, lets shoot your infrared pyrometer at the back side of some calipers at the nesxt autocross and see...

Also, A freind helping is better than speedbleeders any day as they rely on a less than perfect seal between bleader and caliper to prevent air during recoil... Every time you use them, that seal gets worse and worse, increasing the likelyhood of air entering the system which is 10 times worse than water...

I'm not disagreeing with your points. I've just noticed that after an event the Ford stuff leaves my pedal feeling spongy. It's not that I believe I'm boiling the fluid at an autoX, it's that the fluid saps water so quick that I boil the water in the fluid leaving gas in the fluid, hence the spongy fluid. If I fully flush the system before an AutoX, it's usually pretty good right after... but if the fluid's a few weeks old, an AutoX will sponge-ify my pedal.

Plus, I'm probably a bit hyper-sensative to the sponge pedal because I have big feet. If my brake pedal pushes down even just a tiny bit more than usual, I end up stomping on the gas. When the pedal is soft, I'll notice that I'm sitting at a stop sign, and my motor is idling at 1000rpm because I can't keep my heel of the gas w/o shifting my leg left to totally clear the pedal. This happened with the Motul, but it usually took months and several AutoXs first.

I've always said, I want a brake pedal that has zero travel... just a solid bar to push on that slows the car the harder I push. So while the Ford stuff works great brand new, I've found that I need to flush the whole thing too often to keep my pedal feeling the way I like it. Even with all the flushing, it's still cheaper than the Motul (which is why I'm giving the ATE a shot) but the hassle isn't worth it to me.

In short: the Ford stuff is a lot of bang for the buck, as long as you're willing to put in the work of flushing before every event, or if you're not as sensative to a spongy pedal as I am.

[Kevin M]

Scott, you might want to think twice about the BBK then. The extra piston size will cause the pedal to be a bit softer. I've noticed it with just my 4 pots, and I *think* my master cylinder piston is the same size as the WRX one, but not positive.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Scott, you might want to think twice about the BBK then. The extra piston size will cause the pedal to be a bit softer. I've noticed it with just my 4 pots, and I *think* my master cylinder piston is the same size as the WRX one, but not positive.

I was worried about this too, but everyone says the BBK is correctly balanced to the WRX master cylinder and rear brakes so the pedal is actually very easy to modulate and feels great.

And if it's not.... then I'll look into adjusting the pedal and or a single stage brake booster out of a Ledacy Turbo (since that's the real culprit).

Actually.... I wonder what happens if you disconnect the vacuum lines that go to the brake booster. My legs are pretty strong... I wonder it I'd still be able to get the car to the tire's limits w/o power assist.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

I was worried about this too, but everyone says the BBK is correctly balanced to the WRX master cylinder and rear brakes so the pedal is actually very easy to modulate and feels great.

And if it's not.... then I'll look into adjusting the pedal and or a single stage brake booster out of a Ledacy Turbo (since that's the real culprit).

Actually.... I wonder what happens if you disconnect the vacuum lines that go to the brake booster. My legs are pretty strong... I wonder it I'd still be able to get the car to the tire's limits w/o power assist.

Oh, don't worry about that; brake bias and pedal feel will still be great. But you will have to push the pedal a bit farther to achieve a given pressure than you do now. It may or may not be significant enough to cause problems for you, bigfoot.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Oh, don't worry about that; brake bias and pedal feel will still be great. But you will have to push the pedal a bit farther to achieve a given pressure than you do now. It may or may not be significant enough to cause problems for you, bigfoot.

Oh, if that's all your talking about I'll just adjust the pedal. And by adjust, I mean I'll take it out and bend it up 1/2 an inch if necessary.

[Kevin M]

Nice!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Oh, don't worry about that; brake bias and pedal feel will still be great. But you will have to push the pedal a bit farther to achieve a given pressure than you do now. It may or may not be significant enough to cause problems for you, bigfoot.

Actually, the Stoptech kit has a smaller front piston area than stock, so it should actually require less distance to create the same pressure. This effecively shifts 10% bias to the rear which the WRX is in need of.

You can read about this ad nausium in the Gary puts Dean in his place, I mean brake thread burried somewhere around here... I'd search, but don't really want to find it.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Actually, the Stoptech kit has a smaller front piston area than stock, so it should actually require less distance to create the same pressure. This effecively shifts 10% bias to the rear which the WRX is in need of.

You can read about this ad nausium in the Gary puts Dean in his place, I mean brake thread burried somewhere around here... I'd search, but don't really want to find it.

I've blocked out much of that thread... except for the part where I remember all of us getting owned.

All I remember is that after all that discussion, and all the other reading around I did, the StopTech kit was the one I wanted: it's specifically designed for the WRX, and to work with the WRX rear/master cylinger/brake booster, and it's well race tested. Plus it's not as expensive as many other kits.

[JC]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Do we have an Oakos Automotive in Reno?

Oakos is a guy (kid) in MI. I've met him he's a nice guy.

A lot of the track whores in MI run Valvoline Syn fluid and say it's basically equivalent to ATE. It's what I'm running but of course I don't track my car.

[dknv]

Scott, that is weird to me that you had more problems using the Ford HD brake fluid.

In my experience in 02-03, I had my car on 4 tracks, probably 1000 track miles, + 20 autocrosses, and I think we changed the brake fluid maybe 2x. Using the EBC greens front & back. (Right Dean?)
I had one instance in that entire time where the pedal felt spongy, I had the brakes bled, and all was back to normal after that.

Could it be that your brake system is aging, and hoses have expanded and contracted so many times that, like a balloon, now the contracted size is no longer original diameter, thereby allowing something extra in the system after a day of autocrossing?

I also wonder if the force used to brake varies by individual, affects wear long-term? That is, I press the brakes to stop but I don't stomp on it -- whereas I've seen other people stomp on their brakes in order to stop on a dime -- is this more wearing on a brake system?