Let's talk about brakes!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Interesting. Make sure you've got those things safety-wired...

Going with the STi stuff might be all you need; the beefier calipers will actually increase the heat storage capacity of the brakes.. not as much as larger iron rotors do, but a little. The extra pistons (as long as they're sized correctly for the rest of the system) & change in the way the rotor is being clamped will probably give a better feel like you said and let you modulate pressure better at the threshold. The biggest difference for track use though will probably come from running the correct heat range pads, and getting some cooling air on those front brakes. I'm not talking about the WRX's dookie stock "cooling ducts" either , I'm talking about the real thing. Even World Challenge cars don't do very well without any air ducting to the brakes.

I'm starting to think that's the way to go as well. Since I'm not planning on doing lots of track time, I probably can't justify the $1000 *more* the StopTechs will cost. Plus, the smaller 4-pots will be cheaper since I only need some RS rims instead of 17" rims and snow tires. Plus pads and rotors will be cheaper and as far as AutoX, these should give me all the benefit of a BBK (better feel and modulation) w/ the weight of bigger rotors, and no real heat drawbacks since I'm not fading my brakes in AutoX yet.

On a side note, does anyone know how to bleed the ABS portion of the brakes? I need to get that thing to cycle... my brakes are really spongy even after bleeding 'em... I think there's water in the fluid in the ABS system, and even after bleeding the main lines, they get polluted quickly.

[Kevin M]

Bleed them, then go find a place to do 3-4 very hard ABS stops. That opens the valves and cisrculates the fluid.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Bleed them, then go find a place to do 3-4 very hard ABS stops. That opens the valves and cisrculates the fluid.

Then what? Bleed 'em again? That's expensive when you're running Motul!! Is Super-Blue any cheaper? And how can you guarentee the ABS really cycles all the fluid into the main loop? I guess I need to learn how all that shit's plumbed in there.

[Kevin M]

I pay $15 a liter for Ate. Motul is what, $50?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I pay $15 a liter for Ate. Motul is what, $50?

Ouch! Shop here: http://www.stoptech.com/cgi/Products...L&match2=exact

$15 for Motul, $12 for Ate. The only reason I'd go with Ate over the Motul is if it doesn't absorb water as quickly, cuz it's not that much cheaper.... and I can't really complain about the water in my Motul... since it's not really that bad up here in Reno... very low humidity.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by sperry

Ouch! Shop here: http://www.stoptech.com/cgi/Products...L&match2=exact

$15 for Motul, $12 for Ate. The only reason I'd go with Ate over the Motul is if it doesn't absorb water as quickly, cuz it's not that much cheaper.... and I can't really complain about the water in my Motul... since it's not really that bad up here in Reno... very low humidity.

Woah! Strike that! I just noticed the Ate comes in twice the quantity!

[sperry]

Thought of another question regarding the 4-pots... do they use the same size/pitch threading on the bleeder valve as the OEM WRX calipers? I'm hoping my speed bleeders just swap over. Also, I'm assuming my Goodridge SS brake lines will also work, yes?

[Kevin M]

Nope... but come on man... bleeders are like $20.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Nope... but come on man... bleeders are like $20.

Yeah, but that's yet another thing to have to order and wait for UPS to screw up delivering.

[tysonK]

Let's talk abdout getting you an STi

they have sweet brembos just another reason to STi it.

just do it.(if you want to)

[MikeSTI]

Yah thats it get a STi problem solved

[BOO]

True !! Get an STi.. But sell your car. with mods... or without mods and tranfer the mods and make a fast(er) STi
Or finish paying off your car.. get an Sti for a daily driver and your modded WRX for a track car...... Problem Solved !!!

[Dean]

Wow, onto page 2 in under a day...

Hold onto your money for a moment folks...

I have over 450 track miles on my WRX, and many thousands more on the Stealth and A4, and hundreds of autocross runs on them as well as owning Wilwoods, and Brembos for the later cars, and want to throw in my $.02...

Lets start with brake fluid...

Go down to the Ford dealer and get 3 bottles of Ford/Motorcraft heavy duty brake fluid for about $4 per 12oz. It is hands down the budget racer fluid of choice. Extremely high dry boiling point. Flush & bleed your system with 1-2 bottles and leave the third unopened for bleeding at the track if needed. I have used ATE and others, and for the most part, they are a waste of $$$s. In this case only, FORD owns! All because the were idiots when designing their pickup trucks and ran the brake lines next to the exhaust. Doh.

Onto brakes.

Before you spend a lot of money on brakes, please try a decent set of pads, the stockers suck, and no, you cannot get decent pads at Kragen.

The national champion in STX last year switched from STI 4 pots in '02 back to WRX stockers with good pads in 03! Hmmmm...

First hand experience:
The stock WRX pads will fade in approximately 2 laps at Thunderhill, a fairly nice track for brakes! A set of EBC greens in the same calipers will run 40 minutes straight without fading their, and at Laguna Seca, one of the hardest tracks in the region on brakes. Oh, and the greens will practically stand the car on it's nose in comparison to stock as well. Significantly higher cf. The greens do appear to wear fairly fast, and will fade a bit if you abuse them a lot! I have a set of EBC reds I will throw in before the next track event to try. Greens should be a great autocross pad IMHO.

Other good pad choices I have used for performance street, autocross and some track are Porterfield R4S, Hawk HP plus, and Wilwood Q. I have heard good things about AXXIS Ultimates but have no first hand experience with them like I do the others.

So instead of spending thousands on brakes, wheels, etc. go spend about $100 on pads and fluid first. If you like what that does, maybe another hundred+ on stainless lines, and some rear pads. Maybe some Stoptech directional vented rotors.

Note: Good pads may be nosier on the street than stock. This is a physics thing, suck it up. The same is true of big brake kits.

Speed bleeders are cool, but a friend and a 6 pack or whatever is more fun.

Almost forgot... Learn to brake less. Braking is overrated. You can often get away with braking less than you think since usually the next thing you do is turn which also slows the car, and if you do it right, the car will actually turn better if you brake less and time it with your turn in correctly.

The best thing to spend $ on to make your car faster is on seat time for the driver, preferably with instruction!!!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

Go down to the Ford dealer and get 3 bottles of Ford/Motorcraft heavy duty brake fluid for about $4 per 12oz. It is hands down the budget racer fluid of choice.

In this case only, FORD owns!

As a Ford owner, I can verify that.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Go down to the Ford dealer and get 3 bottles of Ford/Motorcraft heavy duty brake fluid for about $4 per 12oz. It is hands down the budget racer fluid of choice. Extremely high dry boiling point. Flush & bleed your system with 1-2 bottles and leave the third unopened for bleeding at the track if needed.

Been there already. In fact I have 3 unopened bottles in my garage right now. However, I've found that with the low *wet* boiling point, my brakes tend to fade quickly unless I flush (not just bleed) the system before every autocross. The Motul just seems to hold up better over several events.

Originally Posted by Dean

Before you spend a lot of money on brakes, please try a decent set of pads, the stockers suck, and no, you cannot get decent pads at Kragen.

The national champion in STX last year switched from STI 4 pots in '02 back to WRX stockers with good pads in 03! Hmmmm...

First hand experience:
The stock WRX pads will fade in approximately 2 laps at Thunderhill, a fairly nice track for brakes! A set of EBC greens in the same calipers will run 40 minutes straight without fading their, and at Laguna Seca, one of the hardest tracks in the region on brakes. Oh, and the greens will practically stand the car on it's nose in comparison to stock as well. Significantly higher cf. The greens do appear to wear fairly fast, and will fade a bit if you abuse them a lot! I have a set of EBC reds I will throw in before the next track event to try. Greens should be a great autocross pad IMHO.

Other good pad choices I have used for performance street, autocross and some track are Porterfield R4S, Hawk HP plus, and Wilwood Q. I have heard good things about AXXIS Ultimates but have no first hand experience with them like I do the others.

So instead of spending thousands on brakes, wheels, etc. go spend about $100 on pads and fluid first. If you like what that does, maybe another hundred+ on stainless lines, and some rear pads. Maybe some Stoptech directional vented rotors.

I've already gone to Axxis Ultimates (I heard horror stories about the EBCs requiring new rotors with every other set of pads) and StopTech slotted rotors (since I wore the bejesus out of the stock rotors) as well as SS braided lines. On the AutoX course *the car friggen stops*. And I have virtually no fade over most courses (Atwater's the big exception). However brake feel is terrible. My pedal is mushy and I can get it to travel all the way to the floor during hard braking, which means my foot is too far past the gas to easily heel-toe.

Then there's the fade issue on track. I wasn't really pushing at all at Fernely, and just trying to haul the car down from 80 to 20 mph a few times was fading the brakes. Now I know it's possible to get the stock brakes to have zero fade (Gary Sheehan ran a USTCC race on stock brakes!). It requires very agressive/high temp pads, crazy hi-temp fluid, and active cooling ducts. The problem is that the heat sink is so small all that heat gets into the seals, bearings, etc. Gary was replacing his wheel bearings after *every* race and his tierods after every two, since he was boiling the grease in there! Not to mention the brakes themselves were baked clean of all rubber and seals.

My primary goal however, is to come up with a better brake feel. You're right about not needing to brake as much as you might think (though I'd suggest most people learning to AutoX don't brake enough). I'm not necessarily looking for more stopping power out there, I just want some confidence in my braking system. I want a stiff pedal that gives me an easier position for heel-toe. And I figure, if I'm spending money to achieve that, I might as well get something that's going to fade less, and stop faster, right?

Cliff Notes: I've already tried all the affordable ways to upgrade the brakes and the feel still isn't what I want, so I'm looking to upgrade primarily for feel, but since I'm paying I might as well get less fade and more stopping power.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

My pedal is mushy and I can get it to travel all the way to the floor during hard braking, which means my foot is too far past the gas to easily heel-toe.

Just take out the power booster, the pedal will be stiff as a rock.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Just take out the power booster, the pedal will be stiff as a rock.

Actually, I thought about trying to source a single stage booster (as opposed to the 2 stage booster that's on the car) from an old Legacy so the boost would at least be linear... but I don't think they'll be that cheap, and the install would be a nightmare. I think you'd have to lift the motor to get it out.

[Kevin M]

The single stage booster is indeed a nightmare. It will be the absolute last mod I do to the car, following the complete gutting of the interior, full cage, etc. etc.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

The single stage booster is indeed a nightmare. It will be the absolute last mod I do to the car, following the complete gutting of the interior, full cage, etc. etc.

Actually, if you're gonna have the motor out, you should grab one from the wreckers near S2 and put it in then! I think you need to grab the SS booster and the master cylinder... but I'm not 100% which cars had the single stage booster... I think the old Legacy Turbo did, but don't quote me on that.

[JC]

Don't forgot Rotora. They make a front and rear upgrade that is similar in price, if not cheaper than stoptechs. Another option is STi 4 pot calipers with an AEM big rotor upgrade. If you go with the 4pots on stock rotors, I'm selling my MY98s, but I didn't really want to ship them.

JC

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

Don't forgot Rotora. They make a front and rear upgrade that is similar in price, if not cheaper than stoptechs. Another option is STi 4 pot calipers with an AEM big rotor upgrade. If you go with the 4pots on stock rotors, I'm selling my MY98s, but I didn't really want to ship them.

JC

You're selling 4-pots? I didn't know you had 'em! I thought you had US WRX brakes... not JDM WRX brakes!

[JC]

No man, my wheels.

[Kevin M]

If you have them long enough to bring them back here I will probably buy them.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

No man, my wheels.

Ahh, I get it. I just had the wrong thing in my head when I read that... I confused myself.

Are these the 98 goldies!? If they are, then I'd be down to buy 'em when you come back here... or potentially pay for the shipping if it's not too much. What kinda money we talking about?

[BOO]

Question: Do these Goldies fit on an STi? Remember when I told you about my cousin in TX who bought a White STi? Well he likes the JDM look .. so I was wondering if these fit the Sti?