Ladys and gentlemen, Your new pope!

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I just can't buy your statement that Christianity is directly responsible for current quality of life.

who would have thought that we would have stry so far from our Christian belief's when we started this great country

Christians believe in meds, doctors, and scinece. Its when a person thinks he did it on his own that greed, power, and ego's get in the way. It all comes from God; who you our, what you do, how you live, who you give thanks.

I really don't like to talk about faith because most poeple don't want to hear it.

[Nick Koan]

Many of the founding fathers were Masons, Deists and Freethinkers.

I would have to argue that this country was not founded as a Christian nation, but with beliefs very similar to the Christian beliefs so popular in Europe at the time.

To argue that we are a Christian nation by birth is simply wrong. If you want to talk about how a lot of the early documents was influenced by Christanity, thats one thing, but the framers of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were decidely against a state run religion.

Everyone makes their peace with God sooner or later. Its a personal battle and a personal decision. A decision that, and I agree with the Founding Fathers here, needs to be kept in your own hands and not left in the hands of the government.

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by nKoan

To argue that we are a Christian nation by birth is simply wrong. If you want to talk about how a lot of the early documents was influenced by Christanity, thats one thing, but the framers of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were decidely against a state run religion.

Its not wrong. The idea would have been that people where already christian and didn't need to be told how to warship. Now, today people get crazy idea's that we should not include these things as heiratage because we have stayed so far from them. The sadest part is that now I become pursicuted for my beliefs in a faith that we should be able to rejoice and share the faith that has belessed me and my family so greatly. Its really quite funny also to think how some people that don't have faith can never figure out the timeless question. Where did Jesus body go? The fact that he has risen from the dead on the third day as he said, should be enough for anyone to go and sit in on a Sunday service.

goes to show how stuburn the human condition is and how a nation can end up so backwards.

[sperry]

In response to ScottyS's long post that I don't want to quote...

You make a lot of interesting points about comparing religions, and the pitfalls of letting the observer's point of view cloud the results of the comparison.

That said, I still believe at the core, most organized religions are the same. The problems with religion comes from man's distortion of the "word of God".

1st, if you look at the geneology of western religion you'll see that Judaism became Christianity which became Islam and Mormonism. And even Judaism is really just a conglomeration of many earlier religions. So the question is, why do religions evolve? If God really did perscribe a way to live and worship, how come we're not all of the same religion? And how come it's changed so much over the last 4000 years?

The answer is of course that man is manipulating religion for his own purposes. Christianity has a *long* history of being a political force 1st and a religious force 2nd. In fact the split between Roman Catholic and the Church of England was *completely* political, and then became religious as the English wanted to make their own brand a bit different. And that's just one example of the distortion of religion for political or personal gain. Look at the televangelists. You can't tell me that those assholes on TV that are taking money from the poor, sick, and people down on their luck in the name of worshiping Jesus are doing God's work. They're using religion for their own goals, and to control the population... just like the Pope's of old did, or the way ancient Egyptian Pharoes claimed to be gods on earth, etc, etc, etc. The bottom line is that organized religions were created primarily as a means of government, wrapped around nuggets of truth that were used as means to get people to subscribe to said religion.

But now that we're in the age of secular government, we look to religion more for moral guidance than for political guidance. We look towards those nuggets of truth that are embedded deep within all the crap, since we've already got our own system of crap known as the federal government.

So, I think we need to look at our religions and throw out all the layers that mankind has added to God's message over the years. We need to boil our religions down to the basic elements that they all share. So one can pick a religion that feels right to them and use it to find community and moral guidance. Religion should be something that makes people happy, and makes people's lives better.

Unfortunately, because of the fundamentalists in every religion that want to take everything litterally, down to the last man-made word, this just isn't happening. Many people, like myself, find the retoric and bullshit that's still imbued in organized religion outweighs the core of good. Like the example of gay marriage. IMO, if two gay people want to get married, it has no real effect on me, why not let them be happy? Meanwhile my religion is telling me that not only should they not be allowed to marry, it also tells me they're gonna burn in hell because of their acts. Then in the same breath I'm told that Jesus loves everyone. Either I'm missing something in the church's message, or I'm not brainwashed enough to doublethink my way around the hypocracy.

So I stand behind my statement that orgainized religions are all essentially the same thing. If you throw out all the political crap designed to control the population, you're left w/ a simple message: "love one another". And yet, that seems to be the message that gets forgotten most easily by religions that have a hard-on for trying to convert everyone into believing their way is the only true way.

Now, regarding the claim that Christianity has improved our quality of life, I'd just like to point out the era known as "the dark ages"... you know when Christianity obliterated all the wisdom and advancement that the ancient Greek and Roman cultures developed. Not to mention all the religious wars (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc.. even stuff as recent as Saddam Hussien's Iraq and the Taliban) that have kept people living in the dark ages in the name of religion. I'm w/ Austin on this one: quality of life has improved specifically because of our secular government that has allowed science and technology to flourish.

(And of course the standard religions discussion disclaimer: I don't claim to have religion figured out, and I'm not saying others should believe in what I believe in... all this is just my opinion, provided for discussion.)

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Christians believe in meds, doctors, and scinece.

I don't have a problem with hearing what people with other beliefs say. I don't know why you're rolling your eyes at what I said though; it's simple fact that people who have made significant scientific discoveries which challenged the accepted way of thinking, in times when religion dominated everyday life, have been persecuted.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Its not wrong. The idea would have been that people where already christian and didn't need to be told how to warship. Now, today people get crazy idea's that we should not include these things as heiratage because we have stayed so far from them. The sadest part is that now I become pursicuted for my beliefs in a faith that we should be able to rejoice and share the faith that has belessed me and my family so greatly. Its really quite funny also to think how some people that don't have faith can never figure out the timeless question. Where did Jesus body go? The fact that he has risen from the dead on the third day as he said, should be enough for anyone to go and sit in on a Sunday service.

goes to show how stuburn the human condition is and how a nation can end up so backwards.

I think the reason you feel persecuted for your beliefs is because you imply that they're the only "right" way to live your life. There are millions of people in the world that feel the same blessings upon their families from the religion they participate in. Is that not the same work of God that you feel in your life? It's been said that God works in mysterious ways. What He's done to touch your life may not be the same thing He needs to do to touch other's lives.

The (one of few) wonderful things about our country is that our founding fathers recognized this, and because they specifically avoided tieing religion and government, they've left the door open for God to touch more people's lives, each in a way that's appropriate to their beliefs. If our government required people to participate in Christianity then many people would feel oppressed, and wouldn't have the ability to find God in their own way.

That said, I agree with your distress about the moral condition of the average joe in America. Many people simply ignore morals & religion altogether, even when they've been given the option of picking any belief structure they wish. I just don't think that mandating a religion will make things any better.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Its not wrong. The idea would have been that people where already christian and didn't need to be told how to warship.

People coming over from Europe weren't a very faithful breed. Some were, but a lot weren't. And if they were faithful, they were driven out of Europe for being an unwanted sect. They were on the hated side in Europe and saw firsthand the destructive nature of overzealotry, especially when tied to the national government.

The Framers weren't any singular denomonation of Christanity (and occasionally none at all). Even the Christian ones didn't share the same branch of protestentism as the others. There was a huge mismash of ideas, basically boiling down to a general Christanity (not one specific sect/branch) and Deism. These two factions, amazingly, got along. No one whined that their religion was getting trampled on. They seperated their political duties from their spiritual ones.

The common ideals that made its way from the belief system to our political system can be found in most any organized religion. It is easy to assume because a Christian outlawed murder that being 'against murder' is a Christian ideal. It is true, but that doesn't mean the law is Christian in nature,a lot of major religions also don't allow murder. It is a one to many relationship, not a one to one. If you can find me one law based in the Christian faith and no others, I'd be suprised.

The idea that the country is founded on is that you live well, you work hard, you have your faith (whatever it may be), and you don't let goverment make those decisions for you. "Keep the governments hands off my Bible", so to speak. Didn't Jesus say it is better to pray in confines of your own home then to spout your faith to a deaf public? (Google is down at my work, and I don't know a lot of my Bible passages by heart. I'll try to find the exceprt later).

Now, to assume that Christanity helped shape the prosperiety of our nation is a little flawed too. To me, what makes this country economically strong is Capitalism and Greed. One of which is a decidedly non-Christian value, and one that can be tied together with Social Darwinism pretty easily. America is also strong because it was given time to grow and invent without constantly being attacked from all quarters. There were struggles, for sure, but nothing like what the middle east has been seeing for the past 4,000+ years. Take any country, and seperate it from its enemies and would be attackers and it could prosper (given the appearance of smart minds and an enviroment to nuture them in).

The country may be going down the drain, but it isn't due to lack of religion. The country has a record number of faithful people right now. In raw numbers and percentage wise, we have more faithful people (largely Christian) then any other time in our history. You can't give a person religion and expect them to become hard workers. A lot of work (esp. in my field) gets shipped off to India and China. Neither nation is strongly Christian, yet they work harder then a lot of faithful Christians here in the states. Its not religion that is affecting these people, its is a desire to better their lives for themselves and their children. If you want to talk about the downfall of American society, it has to be mass media. It makes everyone lazy ("Hey, you don't have to go out and do stuff, just sit back and we'll make you happy"). You certainly cannot blame the downfall of American values on the lack of religion.

[ScottyS]

OK, just for clarification I'll post again, but won't bring anything new up

Regarding the "quality of life" for both men & women, let me reiterate that I'm speaking generally, and referencing the environment of freedom that we currently enjoy. The actual mechanisms (greed, capitalism, hard work, lottery, whatever) that bring health or wealth to individuals are not within the general scope of my argument --- those are individual-level details.

I still can rectify the main issues brought up...

1) Technological/scientific development was not helped by Christianity
2) USA founders were not necessarily orthodox Christian, so Christianity is not behind the formation of the USA
3) Dark Ages (already referenced, actually), and evil acts in the name of Christianity

...using the last couple paragraphs of my post, as they were in my mind when I wrote it:

Like it or not, Western culture had it's origins deeply rooted in Christianity. If a culture is developed slowly over centuries by the combined actions of each little participant in that culture, and that the majority of the populations of Western culture have been driven/heavily-influenced/directed by Christian morals/values/practices, then one may conclude that, in fact, Christianity is what gives us (men & women) the freedom, quality of life, and comfort we have today. That's observation.

I liken it to what I do with tree-ring studies: in a given region, long-term forest growth is determined by climate trends. Each tree forms one ring per year, and the size of that ring is determined by growing conditions for that tree. Sample just a few trees, pool the data, and you get a little bit of the climate trend, but mostly statistical "noise" generated by other influences (soil, competition, disturbance, etc). Sample hundreds of trees in many locations, and you get a clear, common signal showing the climate trend for hundreds of years over the whole region.

Same goes for the previous argument: look at just a few people, and you get a lot of random noise. Look at the entire population over many generations over a long period of time, and you see the overall trends. Religion, especially when organized (meaning hierarchically regulated in real-time) at the regional or global level, can be used by the organizers to the detriment of the commoners. The perfect example of this is the pre-Reformation era in Western civilization.

There are always communication problems when people are operating with different definitions. When I say "Christianity", I don't mean a single organization, I mean the belief system based soley on the Bible. There are uncountable organizations and alterations associated with that definition, strung out like a bell-curve model, so bear with it.

Also, I'm pretty much leaving out historical and modern context after establishment of our country, as the process to get us where we are now is a natural progression from that point, and only a tiny portion of history as a whole. So, the TV scammers, etc, really don't have anything to do with my argument --- except that they fit into that whole organized at the regional level thing .

Again, this is just scatching the surface, and it would take a huge amount of work to correctly articulate and defend my observations (and I know I can't be perfectly correct either), but I think it's worth considering.

Sorry, Kevin, but I had to .

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

[i]Like it or not, Western culture had it's origins deeply rooted in Christianity. If a culture is developed slowly over centuries by the combined actions of each little participant in that culture, and that the majority of the populations of Western culture have been driven/heavily-influenced/directed by Christian morals/values/practices, then one may conclude that, in fact, Christianity is what gives us (men & women) the freedom, quality of life, and comfort we have today. That's observation.

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Because society evolves due to the people living in said society, and because the majority of people in our particular society are Christian, you're arguing that Christianity can be extrapolated to be considered a fundamental basic element for our society's success.

Now while I can't prove the contrary to that statement true, I can say your argument is false.

You haven't established a connection between the success of our society and Christianity itself. You could just as easily make that argument but replace "Christianity" with "White", and say that because the majority of people in our society are white, whiteness is a reason our society is successful.

i.e. just because statistical information shows a coorelation, doesn't imply cause and effect. (Which is something I wish insurance companies would figure out when they raise people's rates because they have a poor credit score.)

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

OK, just for clarification I'll post again, but won't bring anything new up

Regarding the "quality of life" for both men & women, let me reiterate that I'm speaking generally, and referencing the environment of freedom that we currently enjoy. The actual mechanisms (greed, capitalism, hard work, lottery, whatever) that bring health or wealth to individuals are not within the general scope of my argument --- those are individual-level details.

Hah! Sucked into posting again.

See, I disagree even with the clarification; I don't think entire economic systems can be described as negligible, individual-level details.

[ScottyS]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Hah! Sucked into posting again.

See, I disagree even with the clarification; I don't think entire economic systems can be described as negligible, individual-level details.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by nKoan

If you want to talk about the downfall of American society, it has to be mass media. It makes everyone lazy ("Hey, you don't have to go out and do stuff, just sit back and we'll make you happy"). You certainly cannot blame the downfall of American values on the lack of religion.

... the effects of mass media -- has also made us immune to ideas and behaviors that were previously considered unacceptable.

Last Friday, I was channel surfing and came across a sight I could not believe was on tv (we have Satview here, but this was on one of the channels that is also on cable). The show had something to do with the shady side of life for some losers in NYC: and when I hit the channel, one guy was giving another guy a blowjob. While I did not see actual body parts, it was clearly shown what was happening. Then money was exchanged, drugs were bought, and by the time my horrid fascination made me move on, the guy was shooting up something, using water from a dirty-looking toilet bowl.

[dknv]

I have to think that religion is one component of many which are woven into the tapestry of our identity as a society. Therefore, it is not possible to say religion does or does not contribute to the growth and success of our country.

I do ponder if, as a society, psychologically we need one or more of the components of religious teachings; the Church as a vehicle to provide structure and a foundation upon which people are encouraged to believe in a common goal; where one can experience a heightened feeling of faith and hope for righteousness; to have encouragement and rewards for helping others; and to have fellowship. (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.) But beyond all else, we have a driving need to feel free to make this choice for ourself.

[MikeSTI]

I should just stay out of these type of discussions for the solo fact I was not given the gift to write, but I really wanted to add a few things.

these are a few qoutes from a few of the founders:

John Adams - (best known for helping draft the Declaration of Independence and 2nd Pres.) "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadeqate to the government of any other."

Patrick Henry - (Lawyer, legislator and later governor of Virginia) "It cannot be empasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religioists but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!"

My real concern about any of this is that you still don't want to give up the control and say "Thank You God" for everything you do in my life and the ones around me because without you I can not be me.

Charles West - "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them."

James 2:19 - "You do well to believe in God. Satan also believes...and trembles."


I guess my point is God is in control of everything and we still chose (free will) to be human and sin and turn our backs too the bible. When in the end God encourages us to test him too the bible when ever we have doubt's. I know most here say they have an understanding for the gospel, but do you really?

When I say this country was founding in Christian belief's I mean to say the people making this country succeed were of the Christian faith and gave praise to the one who diserved it and were blessed; in so blessing this nation with them. Not everyone had faith but the ones who did had enough for God to even bless the ones around them. I too pray for non-believers and if God blesses them even though they don't have faith yet then my prayers where answered.

[Nick Koan]

I think I should just call someone a Nazi, invoke Godwins Law and be done with the whole thread

Mike, I agree with you mostly. Some of the Founding Fathers were devout Christians (of whatever branch). My argument was that they were not all the same branch, and there was a strong presence of other ideals that helped shape the country. We weren't forged from one moral core, but many and that makes the country stronger. The diversity of our spirtual beliefs should give the country strength. To think that the country was founded as a Christian nation only gives us a partial view of the Founding Fathers. It may be correct but it can only be partially correct and it doesn't offer a view of the bigger picture. I could probably pull plenty of quotes from Jefferson, Washington and Franklin that would say we are a religious nation, but not necessiarly a Christian nation. That certainly doesn't mean that other Framers didn't believe just the opposite. The diversity of the nation should be celebrated just as much as any singular faith is. To say less, would be untrue to the intent of our Country.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

these are a few qoutes from a few of the founders:

Mike, I can find just as many quotes from other founders that thought the exact opposite. Would you like me to list them? I'm not sure it will do the discussion any good.

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

My real concern about any of this is that you still don't want to give up the control and say "Thank You God" for everything you do in my life and the ones around me because without you I can not be me.

See, this is where threads like this go wrong - I don't mind having a calm, friendly discussion about religion, but when someone starts getting preachy and telling me that I'm misguided and just haven't seen the way, and have "turned my back on God", and such other nonsense, because I don't hold the same beliefs as they do, then it irritates me. For me personally, a belief with so many logical contradictions as, say, Christianity does, just doesn't hold any water for me. I don't think less of you because you hold those beliefs despite how it's tenets fly in the face of logic and reason, so why do you apparently think less of me because I don't? I just don't get the attitude...

[NevadaSTi]

"To address those last two points specifically, quality of life & comfort (which seem like pretty much the same thing to me), I would argue that general quality of life for nation-sized populations has been mostly determined by scientific discovery and corresponding industrial technology & production progress. Since religious orthodoxies have been historically opposed to scientific discovery, I just can't buy your statement that Christianity is directly responsible for current quality of life."

AtomicLabMonkey, if we look back to Genesis.
1.) Who gave us the ability to think and reason?
2.) Isn't the scientific process a process of thinking?
3.) Don't we have the freedom to think and make choices?

[khail19]

Well, I'm with Austin on this one. I choose not to believe in any organized religion because there are so many parts that defy logic and reason to me. My mother is very Christian and my wife is Catholic, so I've had plenty of exposure to religion. And I don't persecute againsst people who are religious, because it doesn't bother me at all. It does bother me when my mom (or anyone else) tells me she will pray for me so that I will find God/Jesus/whatever soon. I don't think this country was founded on any single religion because the people responsible were too smart to include any personal beliefs. They had just escaped from generations of persecution and government control, so they weren't about to screw themselves the same way.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by NevadaSTi

AtomicLabMonkey, if we look back to Genesis.
1.) Who gave us the ability to think and reason?
2.) Isn't the scientific process a process of thinking?
3.) Don't we have the freedom to think and make choices?

Well, if you assume Genesis to be historical fact then of course the answer to question #1 is God, and everything else stems from that. If you don't assume anything, like me, then I'd answer:

1) Unknowable.
2) Yes.
3) Also unknowable.

[MikeSTI]

I don't want to sound preachy by any means, if I do its only because you don't want to hear what I am saying becasue it doesn't fall in line with your belief's?

Do you have God or faith in your life? If you don't then what I say can only be the planting of the seed. You don't have to agree or disagree with what I say but I did say I'm not the best writer so it is hard for me to put together a thread that make sence to the world at large

I can only try to do better!

really, I guess where I want to be in this thread is do you believe? again most say they do but there action's speak otherwise.

If we want to get to the bottom of this I think we must first establish want you want in the end of the thread and go from there. I don't know!!!??1!!

I'll start with this - Did Jesus really walk the earth, die, and be resurected? my answer is yes with that information alone I'm forced to look at life in a different light and watch for the shades of gray then test them to the bible for accuracy, not some man behind a podium.

My faith is young and growing and my hope would be that one day I could put together a response that is so powerfull that all non-believers on this board would face the facts that there is a God and he is in control of your life and everyother life on this plant. Therefor we should respect what he has done for this nation and all who live in it.


George Washington - (this is writin at the top of the Washington Monument along with "Laus Deo" which is translated as "Praise be to God.")

"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."

[khail19]

Originally Posted by NevadaSTi

AtomicLabMonkey, if we look back to Genesis.
1.) Who gave us the ability to think and reason?
2.) Isn't the scientific process a process of thinking?
3.) Don't we have the freedom to think and make choices?

Why are we looking to Genesis? The only beings that gave me the ability to think and reason are myself and my parents that created me. If you are debating with someone who doesn't believe the bible as fact, then using it as a reference isn't going to help.

[khail19]

Oh, and Scott (Sperry), it's PROPHET!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

If we want to get to the bottom of this I think we must first establish want you want in the end of the thread and go from there. I don't know!!!??1!!

Well, Scott and I were originally saying we thought the major organized religions were pretty much the same in terms of their big-picture ideas. Then it turned into a debate about whether this is a "Christian nation"... I'm not sure where it's going now.

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

I don't want to sound preachy by any means, if I do its only because you don't want to hear what I am saying becasue it doesn't fall in line with your belief's?

....my hope would be that one day I could put together a response that is so powerfull that all non-believers on this board would face the facts that there is a God and he is in control of your life and everyother life on this plant. Therefor we should respect what he has done for this nation and all who live in it.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier about sounding "preachy"; honestly it sounds like it's so deeply ingrained in you that you preach without even meaning to preach.

From what I have gathered in our forum discussions here, the biggest single difference between your religious beliefs and mine, is that I Am Okay With Other People Not Believing What I Do. I don't harbor any deep desire to convert other people to my way of thinking. If they believe something else, fine, so be it - whatever floats their boat. You'd do well to learn from that; it's much easier for two people to have a calm, rational religious discussion when they don't feel like the other person is constantly thinking about what a poor, sad, non-believer soul they are and trying to convince them of "The Way".

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

George Washington - (this is writin at the top of the Washington Monument along with "Laus Deo" which is translated as "Praise be to God.")

But he doesn't mention what God he speaks of. Yes, we should all have faith, but it doesn't need to be mandated by the government.

[NevadaSTi]

Its good to ask questions, its how you get answers.