Suspension choices makes my head hurt

[MikeK]

I have been driving on coilovers for over a year now. I have whiteline group 4 s with race-spec spring rates and damping, so my spring rates are 9k front, 8k rear. I think the tein flexes are 10k front, 8k rear, so a little stiffer.

At first driving on stiffer suspension was bearable, but I can now honestly say that it is driving me nuts (harrrr!). If you are not planning on competing with the car you should seriously think long and hard before you go with higher spring rates, especially with the crappy california roads.

If I could do it again I would go with something like whiteline group 4s with the standard spring rates.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeK

I have been driving on coilovers for over a year now. I have whiteline group 4 s with race-spec spring rates and damping, so my spring rates are 9k front, 8k rear. I think the tein flexes are 10k front, 8k rear, so a little stiffer.

At first driving on stiffer suspension was bearable, but I can now honestly say that it is driving me nuts (harrrr!). If you are not planning on competing with the car you should seriously think long and hard before you go with higher spring rates, especially with the crappy california roads.

If I could do it again I would go with something like whiteline group 4s with the standard spring rates.

Tein's use "standard" 2.5" ID springs, so it's trivial to change the rates, as long as you don't go too much harder or softer than the original rates so the dampers can be adjusted to match.

Eibach springs are about $60 each, so you could easily go to a 20% softer setup for about $250 if the 10/8 rates aren't ideal for you Dan.

As far as the "new inverted Teins"... I think those may be the Tein SuperRace coilovers (unless there's another set of inverted Teins coming). I bought a set of the SuperRaces about a month or so ago. They're *fantastic* but they're also retardely expensive, and have far more adjustment than you'll need: caster/camber front top mounts, camber rear top mounts, inverted double adjustable 50mm struts, independent right height/spring preload adjustment, dual EDFC capable, 12/9 spring rates.

The Tein Flex's are more than enough for a street driven car, and half the price of the SuperRace coilovers.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3

Is the only advantage to inverted the reduction in unsprung weight or is it more complex than that?

http://www.bilstein.com/tech.php

http://suspensionparts.info/archive/...php/t-273.html

Essentially, with a monotube you get more precise low-speed damping, and more consistent damping rates as they heat up. With twin tube designs, the nitrogen and oil are mixing, and can foam up easily which affects damping. Also, monotube dampers have more oil volume to deal with increased heat.

Inverting monotubes is done to both decrease unsprung weight and strengthen the unit, at the expense of slightly greater total weight for the unit. It is something you will normally only see on strut McStrut suspensions, as there are no lateral loads on a standard shock and therefore the extra weight brings no advantage of strength.

[Double Phister]

I think they were the monotubes. but there isn't a suby application listed on the site. paul said a couple of hundred more not twice as much so it's def not the super races. I'd be all over those or a set of fully adjustable ohlins or KWs if I was competing.

[Kevin M]

The new Teins are called "winding master Mono Flex" and basically, they're a single adjustable version of Scott's dampers, only way less expensive. I would definitely choose those over standard Flexes if the price isn't unreasonable, which seems to be the case.

[tysonK]

Just cut y0 springs!

seriously though. I've also ridden in a lot of "Flex" Cars they are nice.

I'm with MikeK in the department. Having gone back to my stock setup I love my cush ride. I really liked the Eibachs I had. If I end up keeping my car I won't be putting coilovers on it again, even though I will track it. Plus I remember doing thunderhill on my eibachs and keeping up with all kinds of horrible drivers on coilovers by just driving a good line.

I thought I was a hardcore motherfucker but the stiff ride just go to me after 6 months or so.

So in conclusion. I don't like coilovers, although they will get the max performance. It sounds like you are replacing you whole suspension anyways so I doubt you will be getting stock struts again since you'd have to buy used ones or crazy high prices for new ones.

[Dean]

Twin tube, and monos can both be good depending on your needs/requirements.

And there is actually data to support twin tubes being better for daily drivers due to their better ability to respond to normal road "noise" such as truck ruts, etc. where monos might tend to "bounce"

http://www.whiteline.com.au/faqshock...haracteristics.

Beleive it or not, there was a good article on this in a recent Compact Car as well.

For your needs, I would stick to the Flex.

[sperry]

Hey Dan, don't forget, I've got some sweet Koni's for sale still:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4932

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Beleive it or not, there was a good article on this in a recent Compact Car as well.

Yeah I was looking for it, both here and online, and couldn't find it. They did a superb job of explaining the differences between them over two installments.

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by sperry

Hey Dan, don't forget, I've got some sweet Koni's for sale still:

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4932

Originally Posted by sperry's for sale thread

this is a *race* suspension. I would not recommend it for anyone's daily driver. At one point qksubi said my car rode like "a box of hammers"

uh, I think I'll pass.

My civic was stiff. I had koni yellows with some nuespeed race springs. I have no idea what the rates were. doesn't matter I guess because the scoob weighs what feels llike a thouzillion pounds more. But the civic was very dampened (i cant speel so fuck off).

You'd go over the back side of a high spot on the road and the car would drop to follow the road but there was very little rebound bounce. Unlike all of the other cut spring rice buckets back in the day.

I'm still working on purchase authorization from the wife. We just signed a contract to have a pool installed and accounts have been frozen by her

[doubleurx]

I have Tein Flex's now for two winters. I raised them slightly out of the box. The only issues with lowering a car in the snow is with wet snow during the day and freezing in the wheel wells at night. This only happened to me once and it sucked. That said, the ride change from stock on the softest setting is still much stiffer, but not as bouncy over washboard snow as the stock setup.

The only time I am stuck in the snow is when the streets are deeper than the cars clearance with heavy snow (pretty much the same rule of thumb for any car). I've driven it in light snow where the snow was coming up over the hood. I've also high centered in 6" of heavy wet mush.

[M3n2c3]

I'm with Tyson. . .

Having run coilovers for a while and taken a step back to "street performance" springs (I have Prodrive blues on), I can say I prefer a moderate spring/strut setup to coilovers. I really didn't end up using the coilovers' adjustable bits, and in retrospect the street quality vs. autox performance may not have been in my favor (way more time on the street, obviously). I forced myself to get used to the rough ride, but after a couple weeks on the Prodrives, I was pretty pleased with my step back. I'll be adding a set of adjustable struts when they exist for MY'05 to maintain a good street/autox balance.

Since autox isn't an issue, you really don't need coilovers. Also, keep in mind that the dampers on coilovers may need to be serviced more often than you'd need to replace OEM struts. I'd say grab a set of Prodrive springs and some new rear struts. Even if you're just replacing with another set of OEMs, you may find it a better personal value for your money.

[Double Phister]

What do you kids think of this setup?
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=174

Originally Posted by Subaru of Gwinnett on IWSTI

We. Have. Found. It. Seriously, the way the car handled today was DRAMATICALLY unlike any Subaru I have ever driven.

Setup:
KW V3. Standard spring rates. One turn from stiff compression. One and a half rebound.
PDE front plates, stock rear top-hats.
Whiteline 27-29 front sway, stiff setting
Whiteline 22-26 rear sway, middle setting
Whiteline ALK
Carlab X-Brace in the back, M-1 chromoly subframe brace, no front strut bar.
2.6 degrees front camber, 0.1 degrees front toe-out.
1.6 degrees rear camber, 0.01 degrees rear toe-in.
Stoptech 335 BBK PFC-01 Brake pads front, Carbotech XP8 rear
Race Comp Engineering Brake Ducts
Goodyear GSCS DOT tires. 36 psi hot front 34 psi hot rear.
Sparco Pro 2000 Race seat.
Kartboy Short shifter

I have driven over 400 Subaru’s in the last 3 years. None feels ANYTHING like this car. Every other Subaru I have driven requires a bit of “man-handling” or “making it turn.” This car steers like a Vette, or a Miata. Fingertips guide the front end where to go, throttle easily controls the attitude of the car. I think I need to credit a lot of this to the M-1 front subframe brace. It does make sense that the massive loading of the lower-control-arms into to what appears to be a flexible area could contribute to the comparatively poor steering feel in most Subaru’s.

If anybody would like to do this exact setup and have us come out and set it up at any of the tracks that are on the One Lap of America route we will do it for a very low price

SS
__________________
Scott
Performance Engineer
Subaru of Gwinnett
678-584-7251 office

<><
Siegel Racing
404-388-8751 cell (8-8 EST)
www.siegelracing.com
Engineer / Driver / Tuner / Instructor

[MattR]

I was reading that same thread this morning on iwsti...

That's not far off from my setup, with the exception of the x brace, alk and a few different brands. All In all, my car hadles well on the track, street and auto-x with just a few tweeks here and there. I can imagine the X Brace and ALK make a great difference on the track, and I'd like to try them, however they are illegal in my autox class.

If you're just tracking the car though, that is an awesome setup.

[Dean]

The key thing in that post may well be the:
Whiteline 27-29 front sway, stiff setting.

The other components are pretty standard.

I wonder if the Strano bar would make it even better...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

The key thing in that post may well be the:
Whiteline 27-29 front sway, stiff setting.

The other components are pretty standard.

I wonder if the Strano bar would make it even better...

I don't think the Strano is needed on a car already running stiff coilovers. On stock suspension, sure the stiff bar helps fight the camber curve issues, but when you reduce the throw from 4" to like 2", the Strano is probably too stiff.

[Kevin M]

I'd be curious as to how it would compare to KW V3 race rates with 22f/24r or similar sway bars.

[Double Phister]

The Tarmac IIs (RCE spec'd KWs) look promising.

[Kevin M]

They're at the top of my wish list.

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

They're at the top of my wish list.

I just need to pick some spring rates for them.

[bxracer69]

Just thought I would post a picture of my suspension pile in my room, waiting for spring to be installed.

[GST Mike]

We have custom spec'd KW's as well if anyone needs some

Sorry shameless plug but it's true, we have a bunch of KW's instock and have been testing on them on our cars for some time.

Mike

[Kevin M]

Mike, I'd be extremely interested in a set that would work the best in your opinion with my OBS... PM me!

[Double Phister]

Originally Posted by GST Mike

We have custom spec'd KW's as well if anyone needs some

Sorry shameless plug but it's true, we have a bunch of KW's instock and have been testing on them on our cars for some time.

Mike

What are the differences betwen your spec'd KWs and the V3 KWs?

As far as I can tell the tarmac IIs have differenct valving, external reservoirs (on the fronts) linear springs front and rear, double perch rings to lock rather than a single with a set screw.

I remember you had some KW's on the race car with PDE camber plates.

[Double Phister]

I ordered the T2s with 400/350 rates and Group N rear tops. I'm looking into PDE camber plates for the fronts.