Exhaust cut-out & more on the road tuning.

[sonicsuby]

Originally Posted by cody

Hi qksubi, I was wondering when sombody was going to ask me my rational. I think a road tune is better because A. The car is getting the proper airflow over the IC and radiator, and B. The tune should be fine tuned to real life driving, not rollers that simulate real life. There's nothing wrong with starting on the dyno, but the best best tune starts on the dyno and then is fine tuned on the track. Sadly, that would be cost prohibitive and this is the next best thing for me.

You're aware that Ed road tuned Jeremy's Legacy, then later dyno tuned it and got 17 additional whp out of it because he was able to better monitor the car and he knew that the conditions under which he were tuning were the worst the car would see (IE: limited air flow, hot day, etc).

Originally Posted by EJ20Legacy

The discrepancy in the numbers from the graph Dre just posted and the Mustang one is from tuning today. My first run on the Mustang was 260.3 and a couple of the road dyno runs I did with Ed made 260.x also. It was cold out when we first tuned so everything was extra conservative. I wanted to wait for a nice, hot day when the car would be as close as possible to knock to get aggressive with it and set more accurate temperature-based correction. The 17 hp came from pushing more timing and holding more boost to redline than before. It still never knocked once the entire time. There's more in it, but safe is good. It's not maxxed and that's cool with me. Almost all of that torque came from timing...

Boost was more of a pain in the butt on the dyno than on the street. It wasn't as consistent. Those fans just didn't do the trick.

Originally Posted by EQ Tuning

As Jeremy pointed out, I did more tuning on the dyno because I was comfortable in knowing that the car was under the most extreme conditions it would see in real life, so I didn't have to worry about pushing it a bit further and then having the tune fall apart in worse conditions.

Interesting.

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...8&page=1&pp=50

[Dean]

The main straight is over 1/4 mile long, and the esses leading onto it are efectively straight and probably give you a full 1/2 mile with an entry speed in mid to high second gear, so a full third gear pull would be easily possible. And the extra load of the incline will help find any knock/ping potentials.

It is not about straight and level...

One of the dyno advantages is you can vary the load, but I don't think most tuners bother. They use the defaults. If I'm going to be racing on most any of the N. CA road courses where there are significant uphill under full throttle sections, I would sure want to tune for them...

[cody]

Hey sonicsuby, Yah, nKoan brought that to my attention. I think that was more of a case of high ambient temperature vs low ambient tempertature than road Vs dyno. It was relatively cool when Ed tuned Jeremy's car on the road. If it was a scorcher, I think it might have been closer. I could be 100% wrong on that though. 17 whp on Jermey's car is a small percentage and his setup is a whole lot more complex than mine. I don't blame Ed for being careful.

But your point is a valid one...once again though, just isn't that big of a deal in my mind for my situation.

[MikeSTI]

sounds like you will stand stead fast in your decission.

I hope you get the conditions and meet the goals of your tune with success!

when is you tune date? or close to date set (CHP could be watching)?

[cody]

Ha, well let's just say it's very soon then. But I have this fantasy in which Dean finds me a few other guys who need tunes and rents the RF Raceway for me.

[cody]

BTW, since my WRX is an '03, it runs great with my UP and TBE. I don't have the openloop/closedloop delay issue that the MY04+ guys have, so I could wait indefinately to get a tune (of course I don't want to wait another minute). I guess my plugs might foul eventually since I may be running rich, but I don't know.

[MikeSTI]

I would but the standard reflash has been good to me and unless I had the money to get a GT35R or somthing I think the hole thing is a waste

[cody]

I'm so tempted to try that, but I've been scared into believing that the canned cobb maps can cause detonation without me knowing about it. Again, I'm not willing to go the self-tune route or even datalog for that matter. I have my EGT and Turbo gauges and I promised myself I'd stick with this tune until the stock turbo gives out.

[Nick Koan]

Whoever told you that is really stretching the truth.

The Cobb maps are extremely safe (and as such, are somewhat down on power), and you still have all the factory knock sensors in place which will keep your car from detonating.

[sonicsuby]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Whoever told you that is really stretching the truth.

Gee I wonder who could have told him that

[cody]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Whoever told you that is really stretching the truth.

The Cobb maps are extremely safe (and as such, are somewhat down on power), and you still have all the factory knock sensors in place which will keep your car from detonating.

Really? As I have been lead to believe, the factory knock sensor is a weak microphone based one that doesn't work at higher RPM's (above 4K IIRC). Knock is common on 04's stock as I mentioned before. The ECU will pull timing at specific RPM's and this could manifest itself as a flat spot in the powerband. It's really a bandaid to the problem and not a solution though.

[cody]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

Gee I wonder who could have told him that

Yes, it's true that Ed does spread that propoganda throughout the boards. Good point, but I've also never seen anybody refute it. Please let me know if you have.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

Really? As I have been lead to believe, the factory knock sensor is a weak microphone based one that doesn't work at higher RPM's (above 4K IIRC). Knock is common on 04's stock as I mentioned before. The ECU will pull timing at specific RPM's and this could manifest itself as a flat spot in the powerband. It's really a bandaid to the problem and not a solution though.

Its certainly not a weak microphone. It may be a mic, but its certainly sensetive enough to detect even the slightest bit of knock. In fact, the knock sensor will detect knock before you could audibly hear it.

IIRC The knock sensor shuts down at just past 6k RPM (like 6250 or 6500 I think) and won't start back up again till around 5500 on the way back down.

It can cause a flat spot if you car is knocking (I doubt it, as its more a problem for 04+). But you certainly won't hurt your engine.

[cody]

okay, thanks for correcting me. Regardless, I heard many people on the Cobb forums (no, not from Ed) had reported detonation.

[Dean]

I think the detonation on the Cobb forums is from people using maps that are not approriate to their mods, or have gone crazy with Street Tuner....

If I understand correctly, I think if the ECU can't stop the knock by grabbing timing, it should go into limp home mode, but I can't confirm this, and don't want to try.

In a modern knock sensor ECU car, I'd be surprised if you could ever hear the knock before the ECU takes it away. If you do, your tune is so far bad, the ECU can't compensate.

[sonicsuby]

Originally Posted by Dean

I think the detonation on the Cobb forums is from people using maps that are not approriate to their mods, or have gone crazy with Street Tuner....

that's what I've been seeing as well.

[Kevin M]

The knock sensor is a piezo-electric sensor that is tuned to the exact sound of detonation in your engine. It shuts off as it climbs over 6k rpm not because it loses performance, but because normal engine sounds begin mimicking knock at that rpm. It's a resonance thing. If you ran your car to 10k rpm, your knock sensor would work fine from around 7500-redline.

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by cody

I'm so tempted to try that, but I've been scared into believing that the canned cobb maps can cause detonation without me knowing about it. Again, I'm not willing to go the self-tune route or even datalog for that matter. I have my EGT and Turbo gauges and I promised myself I'd stick with this tune until the stock turbo gives out.

well if you look at our Dyno thread you can see my TBE + Cobb (shelf map) puts down more power then some custom tunes (with the same mods)

if your doing a road tune and your affaid of det........its not going to matter much because you could still have the det costum or not it happens. thats why the sensor is there, they expected it to happen under certin conditions, to try to save the motor

[Mojo Troll]

[QUOTE=nKoan]

We're not here to bash Ed (I doubt he's even reading this), its more a chance to impart some of the wisdom a lot of us have picked up after being on these boards for years. If you want to ignore it, thats really no skin off our teeth.

Now is this bench racing or speaking from experience after actually logging dyno and road tunes yourself????

AS far as the whole "hotrodding and speeding on public roads is dangerous" arguement. I seam to recall an owner of a silver Titan pickup with a dealer tag, which frequents this board. Try to get me to pull against them on the Stead 395S on ramp 5 or 6 months ago. He had to have topped out at 85'ish while merging into traffic from the far right hand lane (crossing a couple of lanes into the far left hand lane). Is'nt the speed limit 65 on 395????

Oh wait, he's got "track time and Auto X's". There for it's safe. Perhaps this club should practice what it preaches.

Not trying to poke anyone in the eye, but I see WRX/STI's rodding around town every single week. Wonder how many of them frequent here?

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Mojo Troll

AS far as the whole "hotrodding and speeding on public roads is dangerous" arguement. I seam to recall an owner of a silver Titan pickup with a dealer tag, which frequents this board. Try to get me to pull against them on the Stead 395S on ramp 5 or 6 months ago. He had to have topped out at 85'ish while merging into traffic from the far right hand lane (crossing a couple of lanes into the far left hand lane). Is'nt the speed limit 65 on 395????

I don't know you, maybe I've met you??? But I can't say I really care...Either way, WTF is the point of that. Can't say I've ever tried to race a car with my pickup, maybe you were just wishful thinking or something. So what if I merged at speed. It's not even close to the points the other people in this thread were trying to make.

You're an idiot. Piss Off.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by Mojo Troll

Now is this bench racing or speaking from experience after actually logging dyno and road tunes yourself????

AS far as the whole "hotrodding and speeding on public roads is dangerous" arguement. I seam to recall an owner of a silver Titan pickup with a dealer tag, which frequents this board. Try to get me to pull against them on the Stead 395S on ramp 5 or 6 months ago. He had to have topped out at 85'ish while merging into traffic from the far right hand lane (crossing a couple of lanes into the far left hand lane). Is'nt the speed limit 65 on 395????

Oh wait, he's got "track time and Auto X's". There for it's safe. Perhaps this club should practice what it preaches.

Not trying to poke anyone in the eye, but I see WRX/STI's rodding around town every single week. Wonder how many of them frequent here?

Its neither bench racing nor direct experience. Its repeating the direct experience of many tuners I have talked to personally. Including ones that have nothing to financially gain by telling me this.

As for practicing what we preach, there is the fallacy of hypocrisy. I personally have done a lot of things I don't necessiarly recomend to anyone.

Sure, I've gotten my car to 120+ on public roads and raced people well over the speed limit. Doesn't mean I think I'm am perfect, in fact, I very much know it was not the best thing I could have done. If I try to tell you what is 'the right thing' am I wrong because I haven't always followed my own advice? If I want to pass along a little experience to the board, I will, regardless of what Ive done in the past (or even in the future).

[tysonK]

That's not cool putting track time and Auto X's in quotes. I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or completely discounting them as having any validity at all. None of us are using driving events as an excuse for speeding. Although I would rather have someone going 95mph next to me that has gone 120+ on a track, but that is beside the point. Really close beside it.

Part of the reason this thread was revived was out of concern for a person going to drive fast on a public road. I know I wasn’t concerned if you got the best tune, because I hardly know which one that would be. If you feel confident to go out and do the road tune then nothing we say is going to change your mind.

I am aware many of the modifications we perform to our cars are illegal. I guess we all break the law everyday. I would rather be cited for a modified ECU than a 95 in a 65 speeding ticket.

Out of curiosity how much does Ed charge for a tune like the one you are getting?

[Dean]

Mojo Troll, speeding on public roads is an individual's decision. I'm pretty sure there isn't a single reader of this message that hasn't done 5,10,15, and even 20 over at one time or another.

That said, that is not street racing, and in many situations, it is meerly moving with the flow of traffic. While this group does not condone speeding, individual members may do so at there own choice.

In general, it is the discussion of street racing, or "kills" that is forbiden on this board because we beleive there are much better venues such as autocross, track days, etc. where "proving" you can drive can be done in a relatively safe environment with minimal risk to yourself, and others.

My problem with what I have heard descibed as Ed's method is that his business model requires that his cutomers repeadedly violate the law to use his services. I still strongly believe in real world tuning, but beleive it should be done in a safe legal manner, especially for a commercial enterprise.

[Mojo Troll]

AHHHH

The spawn of critical thinking. Great responses both nKoan and Dean.

[Kevin M]

Here's the big, grand, philisophical and theoretical difference between "speeding" and "street racing" that makes the former acceptable and the latter not:

If I hop in my car, and go looking for a twisty backroad to cruise down at a relatively quick pace, I personally do it around 8/10ths, varying slightly on occasion based on previous experience with a road. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've truly pushed the limits of my own skill and/or those of my car outside of a racetrack or autocross course, and all of those came when I was much dumber and less experienced than I am now. I would wager that the vast majority of "enthusiasts" like those populating this board would say nearly the same thing, because while we accept a certain level of increased risk by driving in that manner, none of us believes it to be dangerous; for one, driving at 8/10s leaves you some room to maneuver. You would be able to pull up a little shorter than you expected to, or turn in (or out) more than you had planned when something unforeseen occurs in front of you on your "course." At illegal, but not maximum, speeds, there is still room to err and not have catastrophic results. Further, if conditions change, like the weather, road surface condition, visibility, traffic, etc. then I can and would simply slow down, same as the rest of you. No big deal, I didn't "lose" anything.

However, when you bring competition into that mix, you lose that margin of safety. It's pretty hard to win at an autocross or out in a legitimate race setting driving less than 10/10s, and that applies to street racing. You aren't leaving any braking power or cornering grip if you come around a bend and find a cow in the road. Or someone stepping off a sidewalk into a crosswalk. Or pulling out of a dirt driveway. Or any of a thousand unpredictable things that could happen. Plus, because a victory is at stake, you're much less willing to simply back off when you know what you are doing is dangerous. People weave through traffic, or pass in oncoming turn lanes, or dozens of other stupid maneuvers.

This thinking frequently pervades even "group drives" which aren't actually competitive at all... but some people think there's something to prove by pushing their limits. Look at the bay area i-club drives last year- what was it, 4 in a row where a car was totalled, and a couple of kids even died in one? That's why I don't do group drives anymore, at least not ones without a very select, controlled group of participants. Not people who have great skill, but people who are familiar with each other and not bothered by not being the fastest, or by knowingly slowing their pace despite another group member's being faster.

To tie this into the subject at hand, the exact same philisophical difference applies to driving a tuned car fast, and tuning a tuned car fast. If you're limiting yourself to road tuning, then you are guaranteeing that you must successfully accelerate from ~35 mph to ~90 mph 8-10 times, on the exact same piece of road. And fromt he tuner's persepctive, he has to do that several times a week, every week. Some people here know that, in spite of the presence of my V1, I do not speed on I-80 during the course of running my route for work, a span of 240 miles. This is because I know that, as I drive 1200 miles every week on that stretch of road, which I know to be actively patrolled by CHP, I would drive the probability of getting caught well beyond 50%. However, if I am driving down the hill for other reasons, visiting family or the Sac crew, whatever, I usually do speed and depend on the V1 and my own awareness to avoid getting caught. The difference is that the probability of getting caught is much lower given my own attentiveness and the infrequency of those trips. The reward of reducing my travel time over the number of trips I make justifies the slight risk of a fine and a point on my driving record.

So, to spell out the point in no uncertain terms: Ed's accident was a CERTAINTY to occur at some point. It was not a freak occurence. What was lucky is that it was his own vehicle and not a customer's, and nobody was badly injured. But the accident was not "bad luck" for Ed like mine was 2 weeks ago.

In fact, the law itself sees this discussion the same way I do. This philisophical point of view is why murder is a capital crime, but kidnapping and rape aren't. It's why you get a fine for being caught speeding, but have your car impounded and/or confiscated and sold, and large fines and/or jail time and/or multiple points against your driving record. "Illegal" and "dangerous" are not synonymous in the eyes of the law.