Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras  

Go Back   Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras > Car Enthusiast Forums > Technical Chat

Technical Chat Ask and answer technical car questions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-04-06, 04:13 PM   #51
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

I don't entirely understand what Nate can and can't control on the ECU, but I think the other thing that Nate's new numbers for my car tell us is that to have maximum performance in Reno, there must be room in the maps, or whatever to allow the ECU to take advantage of the lower air density, at minimum by advancing timing further.

Does that sound right?

I have no idea if the ECU knows anything about altitude, or air density.

Nate, Help... I'm over my head, but for us altitude folks, it is an important issue. We want as much power in Reno, or at 7000+ feet even as possible without blowing up our cars when we go to Sac, or SF for the weekend.
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-06, 05:19 PM   #52
tysonK
warehouse SECCS
 
tysonK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SoCal...
Posts: 6,253
 
Car: 04 Evo 99 Cadillac
Class: street de le mod
Default

So if you really want to be Competative IN a (turbo)Stock Class you can store your car at High Altitude and then only bring it down for events and only let it do runs and not drive around..
__________________
Anjali? Anjali?


tysonK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-06, 05:42 PM   #53
Nate@s-s
n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: S-Squared - Sacramento CA
Posts: 19
Default

Ok,
The car isnt making more power in alititude than at closer to sea level , its that the car will more willingly advance the timing in higher elevations, once you come down in altitude and start pushing the car a bit, the ecu will find that the car is pinging, and reduce the timing till it is no longer present, then slowly advance again till it finds its "happy place" once more. The ecu has HUGE control over the timing, I can modify the base timing map, and where the advance multiplier starts at , but the ecu can still add or pull more timing then it would ever need. ( well, you could if you didnt know what you were doing push the timing map so out of wack that the computer cant come back to a safe point )
There are sensors on your car that will measure atmospheric pressure and help compensate ( most newer cars have this )

And Tyson, that would only work if you trailerd the car to the event , and by the time you were done w 1-2 runs the ecu would be back to normal.
__________________
S-Squared
916-631-7440
www.ss-ms.com
Nate@s-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-06, 05:54 PM   #54
Nate@s-s
n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: S-Squared - Sacramento CA
Posts: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry

It's not the dyno that was changing between those runs, it was Dean's ECU adapting to conditions.

Idealy for tuning, Nate should be able to reset the ECU, then trick it into advancing the timing as far as possible in one run. Shiv over at Vishnu has a trick for doing it (I posted this in the 100 octane thread already):

That way you can test the tuning changes to the ECU w/o worring about drastic changes due to the ECU's learning ability.
Yes, the ecu was mearly adapting to conditions here, based on this data I am going to double our usual baseline pull's on non dyno days ( from 1 warmup and 3 pulls to warmup and 6 pulls ) For tuning, the trick to speed up the learning process a bit does work very well, I have been doing the same thing for a bit now ( you can achive the same result by putting the car under load w the brakes after a ecu reset or re-flash ) The reason I did not do this when testing today was I was looking for good data on what the ecu was doing to explain the higher than average numbers from the reno cars.

Although it does seem that the higher reading cars were inverse to who was driving fast on the way down, which makes sense based on the data we recieved today.

hope this answers the questions, if you have more just ask!

-Nate
__________________
S-Squared
916-631-7440
www.ss-ms.com
Nate@s-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-06, 08:53 PM   #55
ryan4601
EJ22
 
ryan4601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 244
 
Car: 2004 wrx
Default

ok nate, since i am running the UTEC and have full control over my timing map, how much timing should i be able to run, and if you have any suggestions on what my timing map should look like that would be helpfull also....i am running about 22 advance points on the top end 5000+, and as low as 15 down in the low 3300-4400. just seeing what you think....i can use all the help i can get.
ryan
ryan4601 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-11, 04:06 PM   #56
MikeK
Captain Turbo
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Reno
Posts: 3,318
 
Car: 05 STi
Default

Name: Mike K
Car: 2004 WRX
Mods: APS Uppipe, Cobb turboback, samco IC Hoses, Cobb stage 2 reflash
Wheel HP: 230.3 @ 6300 RPM
Wheel Torque: 217.2 @ 4500 RPM
Dyno: Mustang @ Cobb Tuning 9th April 5:25pm

Can anyone convert between cobb dyno numbers and ssquared dyno numbers? Here is my attempt:

My stock dyno numbers that morning were:

Hp: 186.3 @ 5900
Tq: 182.2 @ 4100

Basically I gained 19.2% tq, 23.6% hp. The dyno at SSquared reads about 150 for a normal stock WRX, right? So that would mean that I am at 150 * 1.236 = 185 Hp. When is the next dyno day?

Scott, what are your numbers after ESX?
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-11, 04:42 PM   #57
MattR
El Matador
 
MattR's Avatar
 
Real Name: Matt
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 10,660
 
Car: 2012 Toyota Tacoma
Class: ?
Default

Wow! Nice gains. It looks as if Cobb's dyno reads slightly higher than S-Squared, but still excellent performance gains.
__________________
"Dallas..We have a problem.”
MattR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-11, 04:55 PM   #58
tysonK
warehouse SECCS
 
tysonK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SoCal...
Posts: 6,253
 
Car: 04 Evo 99 Cadillac
Class: street de le mod
Default

I think you can go down there anytime for pulls on the DYno for $60, but don't use the quote button on that.
__________________
Anjali? Anjali?


tysonK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-11, 07:30 PM   #59
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK
Can anyone convert between cobb dyno numbers and ssquared dyno numbers? Here is my attempt:

My stock dyno numbers that morning were:

Hp: 186.3 @ 5900
Tq: 182.2 @ 4100
Well, my basically stock car evened out at about 160, and assuming your numbers are stable, that puts the Cobb dyno about 15% higher than the S-Squared
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-11, 08:47 PM   #60
ArthurS
EJ207
 
ArthurS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 3,707
 
Car: 2011 Chevy Battle Wagon
Default

Great numbers man! :shock:
__________________
Captain Murphy: I dub thee Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, beater of ass. Be a hitter, babe.
ArthurS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 09:45 AM   #61
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK
Can anyone convert between cobb dyno numbers and ssquared dyno numbers? Here is my attempt:

My stock dyno numbers that morning were:

Hp: 186.3 @ 5900
Tq: 182.2 @ 4100
Well, my basically stock car evened out at about 160, and assuming your numbers are stable, that puts the Cobb dyno about 15% higher than the S-Squared
Don't forget that Cobb is up at altitude, so there could be an issue with their conversion for lack of oxygen.

As far as my Dyno numbers at ESX, I still need to get them to send me a printout of the runs. According to the tuner there I pulled 197hp at the wheels, and like 380 torque! :shock: Of course I don't believe that torque number... it must be a different method of calculating it, and I wouldn't compare it to the other torque numbers we've been talking about. I'd guess the car's got around 200 to 210 ftlbs of torque from the way it drives.

Of course, there's the whole ESX vs. S-Squared dyno issue. Nate seemed to think that ESX's dyno reads lower than their Mustang Dyno. He gave an example that my car that pulled 186hp on the S2 dyno would probably pull a 160-170hp at ESX... so with that logic, I'd guess my car's in the 210-220awhp range on Nate's dyno... which is right at about stock STi range.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 09:50 AM   #62
MikeSTI
EJ205
 
MikeSTI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,354
 
Car: 2004 STi
Class: TSM
 
I can't complain
Default

we just need a 1/4 mile track

that would clear everything up
__________________
Cobb Stage 2
MikeSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 05:00 PM   #63
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
Don't forget that Cobb is up at altitude, so there could be an issue with their conversion for lack of oxygen.
The weather stations should take that into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
As far as my Dyno numbers at ESX, I still need to get them to send me a printout of the runs. According to the tuner there I pulled 197hp at the wheels, and like 380 torque! :shock: Of course I don't believe that torque number... it must be a different method of calculating it, and I wouldn't compare it to the other torque numbers we've been talking about.
This is why we are posting the Dyno information, so we know when, where and on what it was done. Did they do a baseline before you started. That would be a great way to compare ESX to S-Squared.
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 06:19 PM   #64
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Did they do a baseline before you started. That would be a great way to compare ESX to S-Squared.
My baseline pulls would be useless because they were done with the UniChip removed and new parts installed. I didn't get any dyno time until they were ready to tune it after my parts install.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 07:05 PM   #65
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Did they do a baseline before you started. That would be a great way to compare ESX to S-Squared.
My baseline pulls would be useless because they were done with the UniChip removed and new parts installed. I didn't get any dyno time until they were ready to tune it after my parts install.
Crap. Oh well. Just have to go back down to S-Squared I guess. When's the next Dyno Day?
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-12, 09:52 PM   #66
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Did they do a baseline before you started. That would be a great way to compare ESX to S-Squared.
My baseline pulls would be useless because they were done with the UniChip removed and new parts installed. I didn't get any dyno time until they were ready to tune it after my parts install.
Crap. Oh well. Just have to go back down to S-Squared I guess. When's the next Dyno Day?
That's what I'm talking about... I wouldn't mind getting a few pulls over there again to compare to my UniChip pulls.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-13, 07:40 AM   #67
AtomicLabMonkey
Nightwalker
 
AtomicLabMonkey's Avatar
 
Real Name: Austin
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oshkosh, WI
Posts: 4,063
 
Car: '13 WRX
 
YGBSM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
According to the tuner there I pulled 197hp at the wheels, and like 380 torque!
That's quite a torque monster you've got there from that little 2.0L motor.
__________________
"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you.. you're locked in here with me."
AtomicLabMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-04-13, 08:20 AM   #68
sperry
The Doink
 
sperry's Avatar
 
Real Name: Scott
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 20,335
 
Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata
Class: PDX/TT-6
 
The way out is through
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperry
According to the tuner there I pulled 197hp at the wheels, and like 380 torque!
That's quite a torque monster you've got there from that little 2.0L motor.
Actually, the more I drive it the more I'm amazed at the tuning. It really pulls nice and smoothly in every gear. Lot's more power down low than before. I know it's not 380 tq... but it does feel very nice!

I'm thinking the 380 ftlbs at the wheels is some number uncompensated for the car's gear ratio or something... I'm not totally sure how it works.
__________________
Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-16, 10:10 PM   #69
doubleurx
EJ205
 
doubleurx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Truckee
Posts: 1,948
Default

233 whp
220 #'

On vishnu's dyno - dyno dynamics I think??

Vishnu Stage 2 on our incredibly crappy 91 Oct gas.
doubleurx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-17, 08:18 PM   #70
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
233 whp
220 #'

On vishnu's dyno - dyno dynamics I think??

Vishnu Stage 2 on our incredibly crappy 91 Oct gas.
What's your exact setup? That's a bit low for a VS2.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-17, 08:36 PM   #71
doubleurx
EJ205
 
doubleurx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Truckee
Posts: 1,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
233 whp
220 #'

On vishnu's dyno - dyno dynamics I think??

Vishnu Stage 2 on our incredibly crappy 91 Oct gas.
What's your exact setup? That's a bit low for a VS2.
Vishnu's dyno is conservative. 233 whp on their dyno is the same as 275 whp on a dynapack. They usually get around 240 with a stage 2 on 91 oct. & 250 whp on 93. My car was just having a bad day or a bad tank of gas. When it pulled 240, it knocked too much for my liking, so we de-tuned to eliminate the dreaded knocking. My set-up is the following:

03 sedan
Vishnu signature series turbo back, vf34, sti injectors, walbro pump, Vishnu stage 2 remap, vishnu intercooler hoses and power pulley, apexi type V-N coilovers, Stoptech 12.9" big brake kit, cusco 22mm rear bar, kart boy ss and links, helix solid end links, 17x8 Rota Torques w/ falken azensis st-115 235/40/17. (ouch $$$$)
doubleurx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-17, 08:46 PM   #72
Dean
Señor Cheap Bastarde
 
Dean's Avatar
 
Real Name: Dean
Join Date: May 2003
Location: $99 Tire Store
Posts: 9,294
 
Car: $.04 STI
Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI
 
Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.
Default

If you'd like your info listed, please submit it in the format from the first post.

Thanks
__________________
I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...
Dean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-18, 07:41 AM   #73
Kevin M
EJ22T
 
Kevin M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Reno
Posts: 9,445
 
Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red
Class: 19 FP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
233 whp
220 #'

On vishnu's dyno - dyno dynamics I think??

Vishnu Stage 2 on our incredibly crappy 91 Oct gas.
What's your exact setup? That's a bit low for a VS2.
Vishnu's dyno is conservative. 233 whp on their dyno is the same as 275 whp on a dynapack. They usually get around 240 with a stage 2 on 91 oct. & 250 whp on 93. My car was just having a bad day or a bad tank of gas. When it pulled 240, it knocked too much for my liking, so we de-tuned to eliminate the dreaded knocking. My set-up is the following:

03 sedan
Vishnu signature series turbo back, vf34, sti injectors, walbro pump, Vishnu stage 2 remap, vishnu intercooler hoses and power pulley, apexi type V-N coilovers, Stoptech 12.9" big brake kit, cusco 22mm rear bar, kart boy ss and links, helix solid end links, 17x8 Rota Torques w/ falken azensis st-115 235/40/17. (ouch $$$$)
I used to work for Vishnu, so I am well aware of the conservative nature of the DynoDynamics unit. It's not unusual for ~5 hp fluctuations on the very top end to happen, but your peak torque seems a bit low too. I was just curious. Nothing wrong with nice conservative tunes.
__________________
FWD is the new AWD
Kevin M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-18, 09:27 AM   #74
doubleurx
EJ205
 
doubleurx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Truckee
Posts: 1,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
233 whp
220 #'

On vishnu's dyno - dyno dynamics I think??

Vishnu Stage 2 on our incredibly crappy 91 Oct gas.
What's your exact setup? That's a bit low for a VS2.
Vishnu's dyno is conservative. 233 whp on their dyno is the same as 275 whp on a dynapack. They usually get around 240 with a stage 2 on 91 oct. & 250 whp on 93. My car was just having a bad day or a bad tank of gas. When it pulled 240, it knocked too much for my liking, so we de-tuned to eliminate the dreaded knocking. My set-up is the following:

03 sedan
Vishnu signature series turbo back, vf34, sti injectors, walbro pump, Vishnu stage 2 remap, vishnu intercooler hoses and power pulley, apexi type V-N coilovers, Stoptech 12.9" big brake kit, cusco 22mm rear bar, kart boy ss and links, helix solid end links, 17x8 Rota Torques w/ falken azensis st-115 235/40/17. (ouch $$$$)
I used to work for Vishnu, so I am well aware of the conservative nature of the DynoDynamics unit. It's not unusual for ~5 hp fluctuations on the very top end to happen, but your peak torque seems a bit low too. I was just curious. Nothing wrong with nice conservative tunes.
Damn, I thought my car was fast....O'well,how can I get more power. Do you think it might be the Tahoe gas, air filter? Do I need a bigger intercooler? What do you think?
doubleurx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-05-18, 09:36 AM   #75
AtomicLabMonkey
Nightwalker
 
AtomicLabMonkey's Avatar
 
Real Name: Austin
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oshkosh, WI
Posts: 4,063
 
Car: '13 WRX
 
YGBSM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleurx
O'well,how can I get more power.
__________________
"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you.. you're locked in here with me."
AtomicLabMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dyno Numbers... U53D General Subaru Discussion & Club Chat 5 2005-08-19 07:04 AM
Dyno Day Dec. 11th Nick Koan General Subaru Discussion & Club Chat 10 2004-11-19 10:02 PM
NEWEST EVO dyno numbers. Evo Mike General Subaru Discussion & Club Chat 12 2004-09-27 07:36 PM
S2 Dyno numbers *evo* Evo Mike General Subaru Discussion & Club Chat 32 2004-09-25 09:21 AM
Credit card numbers AtomicLabMonkey Off Topic Chat 1 2004-09-17 11:45 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All Content Copyright Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras unless otherwise noted.