Harness/Hans disussion anyone? - Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras

WRXlerate · 2012-01-24, 05:06 PM

I am ready to put my order in on some harnesses for my Elise, I have been leaning toward the Schroth (due to availability and a hookup available) but wanted some opinions either on model of schroth harness or otherwise.

I have my eye on the Profi II 6H because I do want to run some pdx and wanted the added safety of the Hans. However, reading through some SCCA rules I am concerned that I must use the Hans for that specific harness to be allowed, due to the 2" webbing it uses. Is this the case? I will also be using it auto x and don't want hans then.

Is using the standard 3" webbing on the Hans that uncomfortable (ie, some of the 3" webbing slides over the edges of the hans)?

I could just go with the non "H" version that has 3" webbing but I'm thinking the Hans doesn't look at all comfortable so I wanted to do what I could to make it better.

I am open to suggestions and your experiences

sperry · 2012-01-24, 05:57 PM

I've got a HANS sport and 3" RaceTech 6-point harnesses in my WRX. I've also run the same HANS device in a lemons car with budget 5-point harnesses also with 3" webbing. And while the HANS device is a little uncomfortable at first, you get used to it pretty quickly.

I've run a 2.5 hr stint in that lemons car with the cheap harnesses in a mostly unpadded kirkey aluminum seat and the most uncomfortable thing was the location of the gas pedal for heel-toe... the seat and harness and HANS all sorta just drop to the background of the stuff you notice. I didn't once notice a lack of head movement bothering me, or feel uncomfortable from the HANS pressing down on my shoulders once I got out on track.

So, I'm not sure that 2" webbing would make any real noticeable difference in comfort. The HANS sport has upturned flanges on the sides that keep the harnesses in position over the top of the device, and it's not like the 3" webbing really jams up on it or anything. At least it doesn't on me (6'4"/210 lbs).

WRXlerate · 2012-01-24, 08:34 PM

Great, thanks for the input.
Anything I should look for in a specific brand? They all appear to be of similar quality for the $300ish price range I'm willing to spend. And I kinda like the locking mechanism on the schroth.

sperry · 2012-01-24, 09:12 PM

Anything FIA approved should be very similar. Options really come down to the buckle mechanism (I greatly prefer a camlock, but they're pricier) and pull-up vs pull-down straps. I chose pull-up on my RaceTechs based on disliking the pull-down on my previous Schroth Ralley 3's, but due to the way the seat and belts interact it almost makes it harder to tighten the lap belts, I'll probably go pull down on my next set. Oh and 6 point vs 5 point... 6 point is a tad more comfortable IMO, but it really the 5 point crotchstrap isn't tight or anything, so it's really not much different either way.

Other than that, there are little things like velcro for sticking the belts to the seat sides to help getting into the car, or straps for radio headset wires or drink tubes that you might care about. But that sort of stuff isn't critical, just nice.

WRXlerate · 2012-01-24, 09:29 PM

The little things matter too. If I spend that kind of cash I want to have something I won't regret buying. I don't want to get into someone else's car and go "damn I wish I had those

"
I've already decided I'm not going to buy ones that specifically work with the current seats as they are not harness friendly and will need upgraded. As for pull up/down, I'm thinking due to the tiny nature of the car and literally no room inside to pull down, pull up is probably a no brainer.
Good call on the 6 pt, I did not think of comfort there but definitely need to.
How often do they need replaced?

sperry · 2012-01-24, 10:46 PM

Belts are certified for 5 years after manufacture. Most people don't use them enough for them to wear out in that amount of time, and unless you're racing or running track trials, certification doesn't matter if they pass visual inspection at tech. But belts do age in UV apparently, so they just use a fixed 5 year age limit.

Once they're expired, you can supposedly get them re-webbed and recertified... I'll find out shortly, my belts just expired at the end of 2011. Just need to figure out where to send RaceTech belts... hopefully it's not New Zealand.

A1337STI · 2012-01-25, 10:19 AM

There's also the Hutchins Hybrid Rage Pro Device. safedrives sells them and does a rent to own. The just got FIA Certification so if you are worried about certain racing events that require FIA they have that covered too.

If you want you can stop by and try mine own . I have a Medium and a small. and i have small,Medium, and large helmets with the correct Hans clips .

I've used both, once you are racing both disappear. IMO the hutchins device is a bit easier to get in/out of your car while wearing. its also WAY more comfortable to leave on inbetween sessions (or while waiting for a stage to get hot) it even provides a neck rest while your sitting/standing around.

the HANS is more recognizable as the defacto safety device, and has been around a little longer. I've seen amazing steals on both on Ebay from time to time...

sperry · 2012-01-25, 10:38 AM

The hutchins is a great setup if you need to get in/out of the car frequently. But it's a lot bulkier and more complicated than the HANS, IMO.

The HANS is better if you're just running sessions at the track and have plenty of time to get in and belted up, since it's not something you wear so much as just part of the helmet/belts you put on once you're in the car. Wearing the HANS w/o the belts is a PITA.

Personally, I feel like the HANS probably has more data to prove it's safe, if only because it's been around longer and is by far the most popular. That's why I went with HANS. Plus, I don't wear my helmet/HANS outside of the car... I climb in, put on the HANS & helmet together, then belt in over them. So, the disadvantages of the HANS never bothers me. If I were like Alex, and needing to get in/out of the car w/ my gear on in the middle of a rally, there's no way I'd wear a HANS. Without the belts on, it just flops around on the back of your next and pulls at the helmet, but inside the car it's smaller, and I would imagine, a little bit more comfortable while driving... though I've never worn the hutchins so I'm really just guessing.

But if the hutchins is now FIA approved... I would expect to see its popularity rise.

WRXlerate · 2012-01-25, 11:24 AM

Thanks for the offer to try them on, I may take you up on that when it comes time to choose.
I don't plan on having to get in and out frequently so I will probably go with more comfort while in the car.

A1337STI · 2012-01-26, 04:14 PM

Ya a lot of the advantages of the Hutchins are the ease of getting In/Out with the whole thing on and ready to go.

I always put my Hutchins on while out of the car, and will leave it on unless I am planning on being out of the car for at least 30 minutes. You really don't notice it once you put it on. ... Until you sit down . The hutchins comes with a pad (sort of a U Shape) as the Hutchins goes down your spine a bit . with the pad in your racing seat you don't notice.

but if you sit down in a normal chair (while wearing it) or service truck you are like "oh ya i still have this thing on" hehehe the Hutchins + Pad does push you a little closer to your dash / steering wheel. maybe an inch? maybe a 1/2 inch.

not a problem for most situations.. ya try them both on and see what's more comfortable.

WRXlerate · 2012-02-07, 12:09 PM

What degree are both of you running (as it looks like they have 0, 10, 20 etc)? And what would you suggest?

A1337STI · 2012-02-07, 12:24 PM

What do you mean what degree ? like how much lay back do i have in my seat? I sit almost at a 90 degree angle. I want my eyes to be as high up as possible in the car to help me see the road, and over crests, into dips, etc.

But the Hutchins device is not dependent on your shoulder harnesses belts staying in proper location. so if you didn't put a shoulder belt on quite right you still get the full neck protection you are expecting.

I really had no problems at all putting the belts where they were supposed to be. (other than the fact the hans is made for a 2" belt and I had to use 3" belts) it still fits just fine , and people have crashed like that (with the 3" shoulder belts) and have been fine.

I didn't have an layback when i used the hans either... (Idaho 0

I may start using a little bit of lay back.. but just to get more arm distance between me and the steering wheel with out adding leg distance to the pedals.

WRXlerate · 2012-02-07, 12:34 PM

www.saferacer.com the $1000 hans has an available 20, 30, 40 degree. It appears that it is relevant depending on how far you have your seat reclined.

sperry · 2012-02-07, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WRXlerate

What degree are both of you running (as it looks like they have 0, 10, 20 etc)? And what would you suggest?

My HANS is a 20 deg layback. I don't think that quite matches the seat in my WRX which I would guess is less than 20 deg nor does it match the seat in my Miata which is probably more like 30 deg.

I never had a problem with the HANS in the WRX, nor in the Lemon's VW we ran which fit me similarly. I've yet to run it in the Miata, so I'm not sure if the layback will be hitting my head in that seat, but my guess is that I'll be okay, just based on the amount of room between my helmet and the headrest.

I believe the 20 deg layback is the most versatile angle and good for any sedan/coupe type seating... anything more and you're looking at Formula/open cockpit type seating IMO.

A1337STI · 2012-02-07, 04:32 PM

oh its on the Hans device.. I'd have to ask hoche what layback his hans is (i borrowed his)

sperry · 2012-02-07, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A1337STI

oh its on the Hans device.. I'd have to ask hoche what layback his hans is (i borrowed his)

I can almost guarantee it's 20 deg. Like I said, the 30 and 40 degree versions are basically only for people sitting in seats like this:

Or, perhaps my Miata... which has a 20 deg seat layback on a custom mount that tilts it back another 10+ degrees... we'll see once I get around to trying it out w/ the HANS on.

2012-01-24, 05:06 PM	#1
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	Harness/Hans disussion anyone? I am ready to put my order in on some harnesses for my Elise, I have been leaning toward the Schroth (due to availability and a hookup available) but wanted some opinions either on model of schroth harness or otherwise. I have my eye on the Profi II 6H because I do want to run some pdx and wanted the added safety of the Hans. However, reading through some SCCA rules I am concerned that I must use the Hans for that specific harness to be allowed, due to the 2" webbing it uses. Is this the case? I will also be using it auto x and don't want hans then. Is using the standard 3" webbing on the Hans that uncomfortable (ie, some of the 3" webbing slides over the edges of the hans)? I could just go with the non "H" version that has 3" webbing but I'm thinking the Hans doesn't look at all comfortable so I wanted to do what I could to make it better. I am open to suggestions and your experiences __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-01-24, 05:57 PM	#2
sperry The Doink Real Name: Scott Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 20,335 Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata Class: PDX/TT-6 The way out is through	I've got a HANS sport and 3" RaceTech 6-point harnesses in my WRX. I've also run the same HANS device in a lemons car with budget 5-point harnesses also with 3" webbing. And while the HANS device is a little uncomfortable at first, you get used to it pretty quickly. I've run a 2.5 hr stint in that lemons car with the cheap harnesses in a mostly unpadded kirkey aluminum seat and the most uncomfortable thing was the location of the gas pedal for heel-toe... the seat and harness and HANS all sorta just drop to the background of the stuff you notice. I didn't once notice a lack of head movement bothering me, or feel uncomfortable from the HANS pressing down on my shoulders once I got out on track. So, I'm not sure that 2" webbing would make any real noticeable difference in comfort. The HANS sport has upturned flanges on the sides that keep the harnesses in position over the top of the device, and it's not like the 3" webbing really jams up on it or anything. At least it doesn't on me (6'4"/210 lbs). __________________ Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?

2012-01-24, 08:34 PM	#3
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	Great, thanks for the input. Anything I should look for in a specific brand? They all appear to be of similar quality for the $300ish price range I'm willing to spend. And I kinda like the locking mechanism on the schroth. __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-01-24, 09:12 PM	#4
sperry The Doink Real Name: Scott Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 20,335 Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata Class: PDX/TT-6 The way out is through	Anything FIA approved should be very similar. Options really come down to the buckle mechanism (I greatly prefer a camlock, but they're pricier) and pull-up vs pull-down straps. I chose pull-up on my RaceTechs based on disliking the pull-down on my previous Schroth Ralley 3's, but due to the way the seat and belts interact it almost makes it harder to tighten the lap belts, I'll probably go pull down on my next set. Oh and 6 point vs 5 point... 6 point is a tad more comfortable IMO, but it really the 5 point crotchstrap isn't tight or anything, so it's really not much different either way. Other than that, there are little things like velcro for sticking the belts to the seat sides to help getting into the car, or straps for radio headset wires or drink tubes that you might care about. But that sort of stuff isn't critical, just nice. __________________ Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints? Last edited by sperry; 2012-01-24 at 09:14 PM.

2012-01-24, 09:29 PM	#5
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	The little things matter too. If I spend that kind of cash I want to have something I won't regret buying. I don't want to get into someone else's car and go "damn I wish I had those " I've already decided I'm not going to buy ones that specifically work with the current seats as they are not harness friendly and will need upgraded. As for pull up/down, I'm thinking due to the tiny nature of the car and literally no room inside to pull down, pull up is probably a no brainer. Good call on the 6 pt, I did not think of comfort there but definitely need to. How often do they need replaced? __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-01-24, 10:46 PM	#6
sperry The Doink Real Name: Scott Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 20,335 Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata Class: PDX/TT-6 The way out is through	Belts are certified for 5 years after manufacture. Most people don't use them enough for them to wear out in that amount of time, and unless you're racing or running track trials, certification doesn't matter if they pass visual inspection at tech. But belts do age in UV apparently, so they just use a fixed 5 year age limit. Once they're expired, you can supposedly get them re-webbed and recertified... I'll find out shortly, my belts just expired at the end of 2011. Just need to figure out where to send RaceTech belts... hopefully it's not New Zealand. __________________ Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?

2012-01-25, 10:19 AM	#7
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	There's also the Hutchins Hybrid Rage Pro Device. safedrives sells them and does a rent to own. The just got FIA Certification so if you are worried about certain racing events that require FIA they have that covered too. If you want you can stop by and try mine own . I have a Medium and a small. and i have small,Medium, and large helmets with the correct Hans clips . I've used both, once you are racing both disappear. IMO the hutchins device is a bit easier to get in/out of your car while wearing. its also WAY more comfortable to leave on inbetween sessions (or while waiting for a stage to get hot) it even provides a neck rest while your sitting/standing around. the HANS is more recognizable as the defacto safety device, and has been around a little longer. I've seen amazing steals on both on Ebay from time to time... __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time! Last edited by A1337STI; 2012-01-25 at 10:22 AM.

2012-01-25, 10:38 AM	#8
sperry The Doink Real Name: Scott Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 20,335 Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata Class: PDX/TT-6 The way out is through	The hutchins is a great setup if you need to get in/out of the car frequently. But it's a lot bulkier and more complicated than the HANS, IMO. The HANS is better if you're just running sessions at the track and have plenty of time to get in and belted up, since it's not something you wear so much as just part of the helmet/belts you put on once you're in the car. Wearing the HANS w/o the belts is a PITA. Personally, I feel like the HANS probably has more data to prove it's safe, if only because it's been around longer and is by far the most popular. That's why I went with HANS. Plus, I don't wear my helmet/HANS outside of the car... I climb in, put on the HANS & helmet together, then belt in over them. So, the disadvantages of the HANS never bothers me. If I were like Alex, and needing to get in/out of the car w/ my gear on in the middle of a rally, there's no way I'd wear a HANS. Without the belts on, it just flops around on the back of your next and pulls at the helmet, but inside the car it's smaller, and I would imagine, a little bit more comfortable while driving... though I've never worn the hutchins so I'm really just guessing. But if the hutchins is now FIA approved... I would expect to see its popularity rise. __________________ Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?

2012-01-25, 11:24 AM	#9
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	Thanks for the offer to try them on, I may take you up on that when it comes time to choose. I don't plan on having to get in and out frequently so I will probably go with more comfort while in the car. __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-01-26, 04:14 PM	#10
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	Ya a lot of the advantages of the Hutchins are the ease of getting In/Out with the whole thing on and ready to go. I always put my Hutchins on while out of the car, and will leave it on unless I am planning on being out of the car for at least 30 minutes. You really don't notice it once you put it on. ... Until you sit down . The hutchins comes with a pad (sort of a U Shape) as the Hutchins goes down your spine a bit . with the pad in your racing seat you don't notice. but if you sit down in a normal chair (while wearing it) or service truck you are like "oh ya i still have this thing on" hehehe the Hutchins + Pad does push you a little closer to your dash / steering wheel. maybe an inch? maybe a 1/2 inch. not a problem for most situations.. ya try them both on and see what's more comfortable. __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2012-02-07, 12:09 PM	#11
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	What degree are both of you running (as it looks like they have 0, 10, 20 etc)? And what would you suggest? __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-02-07, 12:24 PM	#12
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	What do you mean what degree ? like how much lay back do i have in my seat? I sit almost at a 90 degree angle. I want my eyes to be as high up as possible in the car to help me see the road, and over crests, into dips, etc. But the Hutchins device is not dependent on your shoulder harnesses belts staying in proper location. so if you didn't put a shoulder belt on quite right you still get the full neck protection you are expecting. I really had no problems at all putting the belts where they were supposed to be. (other than the fact the hans is made for a 2" belt and I had to use 3" belts) it still fits just fine , and people have crashed like that (with the 3" shoulder belts) and have been fine. I didn't have an layback when i used the hans either... (Idaho 0 I may start using a little bit of lay back.. but just to get more arm distance between me and the steering wheel with out adding leg distance to the pedals. __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!

2012-02-07, 12:34 PM	#13
WRXlerate EJ22 Real Name: John B. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind a brick wall. Posts: 471 Car: 02 Soccermom Wagon Class: "sleeper" Destroying V8 Egos 4 cylinders at a time	www.saferacer.com the $1000 hans has an available 20, 30, 40 degree. It appears that it is relevant depending on how far you have your seat reclined. __________________ Stuff sold by the gram is always more exciting than stuff sold by the pound. JC

2012-02-07, 04:32 PM	#15
A1337STI EJ205 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,840 Car: Impreza and an Impreza Class: AS / CRS PerfStock "pedal on the right"	oh its on the Hans device.. I'd have to ask hoche what layback his hans is (i borrowed his) __________________ Fighting uphill battles, one bullet at a time!