Next season's autocross classes

[sperry]

Well, what's everyone thinking about running next season? It's only 5 months away! Time to start planning!

I'm thinking about running SM or NSM. Stepping all the way up to SM means having to throw money at race tires, and having to haul them to each event and change tires before and after racing. Considering the amount of tread I've got left on my Azenis Sports, I could probably get half a season out of 'em yet if I ran NSM instead!

For reference here are the '03 PAX values for popular classes (who knows how different next year's will be):

NDS: .770
DS: .795
STX: .798
NAS: .801
NSM: .807
AS: .828
SM: .834

According to these, I'm gonna have to pick up a lot of time to be competative in SM... meanwhile NSM isn't that much faster than STX was! Plus since Street Tire is a PAX class, we can all run against each other regardless of car or mods!

So, who's in with me for a season of Street Tire!!? Dean and Matt, you guys should run NSM and NAS!

[MattR]

I think I will run street tire next season, I may run NSM too though, because I could do a few subtle mods and potentially really improve. I actually really enjoy running in street tire. NAS might be where I stay though.
We'll see. I don;t know that race tires are in my budget for next season.

[ArthurS]

I think I will still be in STX until I get the new car.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ArthurS

I think I will still be in STX until I get the new car.

If you ran NSM with us, you could run modified boost, and your PAX value is .807 vs. .798 which means you'd only have to be .54 seconds faster on a 60 second course to get the same PAX.

[ArthurS]

Originally Posted by sperry

If you ran NSM with us, you could run modified boost, and your PAX value is .807 vs. .798 which means you'd only have to be .54 seconds faster on a 60 second course to get the same PAX.

Hmm....with NSM could I have the lower control arms or ALK?

[sperry]

[quote="ArthurS"]

Originally Posted by sperry

Hmm....with NSM could I have the lower control arms or ALK?

I'm pretty sure the lower control arms are legal in SM (and even STX?) but the ALK is still illegal. However, the ALK is on the list of things people are arguing over to be allowed when they revamp the rules in the off season... along with those stupid intercooler hoses.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

However, the ALK is on the list of things people are arguing over to be allowed when they revamp the rules in the off season... along with those stupid intercooler hoses.

I wonder if they're going to ever allow front k-member swaps...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I wonder if they're going to ever allow front k-member swaps...

Just build a NASCAR style rollcage... that'll stiffen her right up.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

Just build a NASCAR style rollcage... that'll stiffen her right up.

Well, it's more about correcting the piss-poor front end geometry than stiffening.. but the extra structural strength is nice too.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Well, it's more about correcting the piss-poor front end geometry than stiffening.. but the extra structural strength is nice too.

I thought the suspension *was* attached to the rollcage in a cup car?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I thought the suspension *was* attached to the rollcage in a cup car?

Well, if by "building a NASCAR style rollcage" you meant "Junking the Mustang and building a body-on-tubular-steel-frame chassis from the ground up", then yes. That would be correct.

[MattR]

I bet S squared could build it! ...

As far as classes go, i think I will stay in NAS. I think Jim Payne in the other silver STI is going to make a run at SM, I suppose he should run NSM if he doesn't switch to race tires, but either way, i might watch and see how some of his mods work before I do anything. In the short time I've had the STI, I really enjoyed racing the street tire class a lot, I thought nothing could be as great as racing STX with the group, but street tire class is pretty cool.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

I bet S squared could build it! ...

As far as classes go, i think I will stay in NAS. I think Jim Payne in the other silver STI is going to make a run at SM, I suppose he should run NSM if he doesn't switch to race tires, but either way, i might watch and see how some of his mods work before I do anything. In the short time I've had the STI, I really enjoyed racing the street tire class a lot, I thought nothing could be as great as racing STX with the group, but street tire class is pretty cool.

That's the idea... if we go for Street Tire, we can race against each other still, even tho we're in different classes normally. In fact, I think the competition will be even stiffer with you in the STi and Dean and Theo both running (if we can get Theo to go for NSM instead of SM). I just afeared of you souping up that STi and running NSM... I can't afford to compete with that! :shock: Keep it in NAS!!

[MattR]

Hmmm? I don't know what exactly I would have to do to take it to SM. ?? Swaybars? ECU? Full TurboBack? Are those legal, that would be fun. But yeah, I think i'm gonna give NAS a run. It will be cheaper...

Also, I can refer to my car as a NAScar..bwahaha!

[dknv]

Originally Posted by MattR

Also, I can refer to my car as a NAScar..bwahaha!

good one!

You guys may want to find out what John & Patty are going to class in next year -- last year they dominated street tire class. (They'll probably dominate whatever class they go to!)

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

good one!

You guys may want to find out what John & Patty are going to class in next year -- last year they dominated street tire class. (They'll probably dominate whatever class they go to!)

Bring it.

[Dean]

I'd run NSM, but can't find any really sticky 275/40-17 street tires, much less the 315s I'd like to run... No Azinis, or Parada Spec 2s. The KDWs aren't bad but aren't as good as the Falkens.

I also thought about a NCS Miata, but with all the Miata crazies with $3000 shocks at nationals, the CS PAX sucks. Matt and Gary just beat me on Sunday when I drove Sue's Miata, and I was flying about as fast as it could go...

Also, be aware that the PAX for street tires will likely become a single additional mutiplier. So in addition to the class pax, there will be a Street tire multiplier of somewhere in the neighborhood of .967

Last weekend getting beat by a BMW and a Mustang proves the Toyos gotta go... I may also have to do something about Boost.. The stock 11 PSI just may not be enough next year...

I could run 14-15 PSI on stock injectors, but really need a better fuel pump. And why not Fuel rails, injectors, and an AEM ECU while I'm at it...

11" rims and 315s would really help keeping the 3500+ pounds stuck to the ground, but as we all know, the above all take $$$

I also thought it might be fun to just drive RNP in anybody's car that wanted some instruction, or a tire warmer...

I really hope they ban all the fancy schocks in stock class. Sway bars should go as well...

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

I really hope they ban all the fancy schocks in stock class. Sway bars should go as well...

I agree, whats the point of a stock class if you can change some of the most vital pcs of suspension? I 've never understood that rule. Most racers running stock class are not able to spend the $$$ on these components anyway.

Also, Dean, what size are your toyo RA-1's?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

11" rims and 315s would really help keeping the 3500+ pounds stuck to the ground, but as we all know, the above all take $$$

Damn, buy me a set of those while you're at it. I'm skating around the courses on worn 245's right now.

I really hope they ban all the fancy schocks in stock class. Sway bars should go as well...

Yeah, they could do that pretty easily by just banning adjustable, remote reservoir shocks (unless so equipped from the factory). I've always thought it was kinda stupid to have people taking a car in a "Stock" category and putting $5,000-10,000 worth of aftermarket hardware on it.

[sperry]

They can't ban shocks in stock classes.... they're wear items. How can you tell someone with say a 1965 Porsche they have to run "stock" shocks that are no longer manufactured? They're either running 40 year old shocks, or booted out of stock! You could try to say the shocks have to be "of the same specifications as stock" or something, but that's virtually impossible to enforce... how are you going to prove someone didn't revalve them? SCCA would have to start maintaining a list equivalent shocks, and deal with protests involving opening struts to measure valves! With items like brake rotors and springs, simple inspection is usually enough to verify their "stockness" but with struts, they pretty much have to say anything goes. Same deal with brake pads... it'd be way to difficult to make sure everyone is running "stock" pads.

Honestly, I think the Stock classes and Modified classes are the only somewhat logical classes in SCCA. Of course there's dispute as to which cars go into which sub-class of stock, but the rules are at least pretty easy to understand; basically, in stock you can replace anything that wears out... and the front swaybar . In Modified, anything goes as long as it's safe and meets the power to weight limits.

[Dean]

They can't ban them, but they can ban external resevoir, and any external adjustment that is not OE.

You can also require that they be sealed non-rebuildable shocks unless the OE were otherwise. That would eliminate all but the most die hard would be cheat. Yes, sombody could carry 10 sets of sealed differently valved schocks, but you couldn't change those between runs like you can a set screw of some form.

i think Stock should be as close o the way they rolled off the assemply line as possible, including that it should be a street tire class.

Powere to weight would be a great method, but who has a portable 4 wheel Dyno to bring to Tech?

275/40-17s in answer to Matt's question.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

They can't ban them, but they can ban external resevoir, and any external adjustment that is not OE.

You can also require that they be sealed non-rebuildable shocks unless the OE were otherwise. That would eliminate all but the most die hard would be cheat. Yes, sombody could carry 10 sets of sealed differently valved schocks, but you couldn't change those between runs like you can a set screw of some form.

Good ideas. I guess something along the lines of "shocks must be of the same basic design" would be a good rule. Kinda like STX's rule for suspension that states you can use any struts/springs as long as they're the same layout as stock. The current rules sound like yet another hold over from the fact the rules are so old... I'd guess when they made the rules, no one ever ran adjustable or remote resevoir shocks.

i think Stock should be as close o the way they rolled off the assemply line as possible, including that it should be a street tire class.

Street Tire for stock class would be a great idea, but considering how tight the competition is, and how arbitrary the wear ratings are, it really wouldn't save anyone money at the higher levels of stock competition. Nationals would be full of cars running $300/tire Eagle F1's and the like. Granted they'd last longer than a set of Hoosiers, they'd still cost as much and would be slower. I think for simplicity sake, SCCA decided to make the stock tire spec simply "DOT Approved".

Powere to weight would be a great method, but who has a portable 4 wheel Dyno to bring to Tech?

When I mentioned power to weight, I was actually talking about the rules for the Modified classes that specify displacement vs. weight. Actually limiting power would be way expensive as you'd have to do random dyno sampling like Spec Miata does.

The one thing that doesn't make sence to me about stock is the front swaybar rule. I guess the reasoning is that so many cars come setup to push for saftey purposes that it kinda makes sense to allow a front bar to dial that out... but doesn't that go against the idea of "stock"... shouldn't you have just purchased a car that doesn't understeer so bad? And why just the front swaybar, why not the rear, or both?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

They can't ban shocks in stock classes.... they're wear items.

Like Dean said, that's why you can just word it to say no adjustable shocks/remote reservoirs unless OE equipped.

Originally Posted by sperry

The one thing that doesn't make sence to me about stock is the front swaybar rule. I guess the reasoning is that so many cars come setup to push for saftey purposes that it kinda makes sense to allow a front bar to dial that out...

And why just the front swaybar, why not the rear, or both?

Personally I wouldn't want to soften a front bar on a factory car, they usually roll too damn much anyway. If anything I'd stiffen the rear bar.

Originally Posted by sperry

...but doesn't that go against the idea of "stock"... shouldn't you have just purchased a car that doesn't understeer so bad?

Come on, even your $25,000 WRX understeered like a plow when it was stock. I know my Mustang certainly did (and still does). How much money are we supposed to spend here? I think a couple of small allowances like swaybars are OK for stock, since 1) Aftermarket swaybars usually aren't all that expensive (relative to other parts like racing shocks, at least), and 2) It lets someone with a car that isn't as well balanced as the next guy's car from the factory have a shot at correcting the problem so he's more competitive. I know that's probably against the purist view on "Stock", but I'm over it. The next step up is Street Prepared, and that costs even more money to compete in. I'm all about controlling costs here...

Don't even get me started on how you can weld in an 8 point roll cage (which will run you $1500-2000 at least for a well built, custom cage) to a car in Street Prepared for chassis stiffness, but you can't weld on a couple of subframe connecting bars that cost $80. Idiotic. Anyone from SCCA have that one on their agenda?

[sperry]

For those of you not on the SCCA mailing list, here they are, in all their glory:

SS 0.836   ASP 0.848   AP 0.868   AM 1.000 
AS 0.828   BSP 0.839   BP 0.863   BM 0.945 
BS 0.826   CSP 0.837   CP 0.854   CM 0.913 
CS 0.811   DSP 0.819   DP 0.844   DM 0.886 
DS 0.794   ESP 0.824   EP 0.861   EM 0.894 
ES 0.804   FSP 0.813   FP 0.862   FM 0.889 
FS 0.803               
GS 0.781   STS 0.791   SM 0.838   FSAE 0.960 
HS 0.776   STX 0.795   SM2 0.849  F125 0.938

There are many changes for the coming year, and most of them seem logical to me based on class performances I've seen at well-attended events in our region and elsewhere. I was told that AM was adjusted harder to make it the equivalent of 1.003 compared with the 2003 PAX. In reality this means that to stay in the same competitiveness bracket as you were before, your class would have had to move to a slightly lower number.

Some of the biggest movers (more than 0.003):
-STS got 0.007 harder
-SM got 0.004 harder
-DM got 0.005 easier
-EM got 0.005 easier
-FM got 0.005 easier

Go to the link below for the complete list.
http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2004.html

Something to note... STX didn't get shuffled much. That means the WRX can continue to OWN in that class. Hell, if I stayed there and got some coilovers, I might be able to make a run at the Overall PAX championship (I'm sure Mike in his DS Porsche would disagree... )! However, I think I'd rather run against everyone from SECCS in Street Tire, plus I'd like to stop having to run crappy UniChip management just to stay legal, which means I'm NSM bound!

What's really missing from all these numbers is the street tire multiplier. Once we have that, we'll know for sure how fast is "fast" in N*.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

-SM got 0.004 harder

Oh, that's lovely...